HANS Device

[RickK]

It would be nice to see some actual comparison tests doen by the same lab with all the various units included and not favoratism shown....

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html

Yep, but that is for a 45g impact at a 30 degree frontal offset. How about other orientation and magnitude data to match up with what other mfgr's publish?

That is about the worst it can get. How many folks crash striaght on? Same with street accidents, those are always on angles as well.

I would use the angle tests for sure.

An angular test may be the most common but that does not mean tests straight on and at other angles are not relevant. As an engineer I am trained to analyze things from all aspects. Where is the data for 45 deg or maybe for a 70g impact. Why not head on data? All of these are important and seeing the results for all of the devices on the market for all of the tests would be helpful to all. When a manufacturer shows data for one test and shows themselves to be the best, it makes me real curious why they aren't showing results for another test -- of course I probably know the answer to that already.

[kary]

It would be nice to see some actual comparison tests doen by the same lab with all the various units included and not favoratism shown....

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html

Yep, but that is for a 45g impact at a 30 degree frontal offset. How about other orientation and magnitude data to match up with what other mfgr's publish?

That is about the worst it can get. How many folks crash striaght on? Same with street accidents, those are always on angles as well.

I would use the angle tests for sure.

An angular test may be the most common but that does not mean tests straight on and at other angles are not relevant. As an engineer I am trained to analyze things from all aspects. Where is the data for 45 deg or maybe for a 70g impact. Why not head on data? All of these are important and seeing the results for all of the devices on the market for all of the tests would be helpful to all. When a manufacturer shows data for one test and shows themselves to be the best, it makes me real curious why they aren't showing results for another test -- of course I probably know the answer to that already.

Be careful that your suspicious nature doesn't cloud your judgement. Gregg at Isaac will answer any question you have, all you have to do is ask if it is that important to you.

[RickK]

Be careful that your suspicious nature doesn't cloud your judgement.

Doesn't that lead to the dark side?

[gbaker]

I'm amazed at the rhetoric surrounding "safety"....will never happen to us.

David,

The attitude you describe has been well documented throughout racing history. Individual racers never believe it will happen to them, so when the body count gets too high the sanctioning bodies (or their insurance companies) mandate them and everyone complains.

Basilar skull fractures are the #1 cause of racing fatalities--50% of all deaths--and a driver is killed every month due to head and neck injuries, yet no one believes it will happen to them.

[gbaker]

It would be nice to see some actual comparison tests doen by the same lab with all the various units included and not favoratism shown....

http://www.isaacdirect.com/html/chart.html

Yep, but that is for a 45g impact at a 30 degree frontal offset. How about other orientation and magnitude data to match up with what other mfgr's publish?

Rick,

This protocol (Wayne State University) is the only one against which all products have been tested.

One could examine data from the MGA sled, the FIA sled, the Delphi sled, etc., but all products have not been tested at these labs so a comparison cannot be made.

[TheStig]

Be careful that your suspicious nature doesn't cloud your judgement.

Doesn't that lead to the dark side?

I was just talking about SW to my co-worker.

I guess despite all the safety equipment out on the market, it all boils down to a proper use to prevent injury. I wonder if we will have to use neck restraints at TT's in the future (if you guys aren't using them already, I've never ran one)

[Pete Millikin]

For me it is pretty clear that a H&N restraint fills a huge gap in the required safety equipment for higher speed events. 1K is a small price to pay for the best available protection.

I'm sure there is enough interest on safety equipment to hear an expert's take. I propose we try to do a tech session on the subject.

[RickK]

Greg,
What results are covered in the SAE paper I've heard mentioned?

[David J Marguglio]

There is much discussion and speculation regarding the Hans device (and its competitors I am sure) and its proper installation. There have been instances of shoulder belts slipping off of the yoke making its efficacy de minimis which prompted a redesign by the manufacturer as well as new seats and belts designed to work specifically with the HANS. Of more interest, the tether adjustment used in the published testing is said to be tighter than most users will likely find it useable. Just my two cents.

[gbaker]

Greg,
What results are covered in the SAE paper I've heard mentioned?

Rick,

There are two SAE papers that are relevant if you want to compare designs, numbers 2002-01-3304 and 2002-01-3306. Both deal with WSU test data. The first compares the HANS device, Hutchens Device and the D-Cel products; the second covers the development of the Isaac system.

The most important measure of safety is the force that tends to pull the head off the top of the neck (called F-sub-z), and these are the numbers you normally see in lay presentations and manufacturers' advertising. It's also the basis of the data on the chart referenced above. The 3304 paper also reports shear forces at the base of the skull and bending about the base of the skull in two axes plus the HIC, or head injury criteria index.

The crash dummy is wired for 30+ measures, but most are beyond the scope of a single paper.

[craig]

I have been visiting your forum for the past few weeks and noticed a large discussion regarding the Hans device. I represent The Racers Shop, Inc in Redondo Beach, we are the largest Hans dealer in the Us. We currently have a special on the Hans device and can offer a lot of information if you are on the fence about head and neck systems. Beware that Hans is the only head and neck device that has passed 2005 safety test. Please call for further information, 1 800 965 7717, or visit our website if you would like information. www.theracersshop.com

Craig

[gbaker]

...Hans is the only head and neck device that has passed 2005 safety test....

Craig

Wrong.

It is the only device to have trapped drivers in burning cars and sent drivers to hospitals without having crashed, however.

This is not the place for commercial promotion, Craig.

[craig]

greg??

what kind of data do you have regarding the hans causing people to be sent to the hospital in fires, if used correctly that should not be the case. This is why i try to give people REAL safety facts and not mislead them to a cheaper divices. Its amazing to me how $ 865 is so difficult for people to spend yet they will spend $1000 plus on tires.

I am not here for commercial interest but to give people the correct answers to questions posed as i think we would know.

Craig

[harnishclan]

gbaker, pretty harsh rebuke there. I have seen a ton commercial stuff here, the guy is merely offering info. If that leads to a sale for him, more power. Besides his shop was already mentioned earlier in the post as a place to go.

[gbaker]

Okay, okay. I apologize if that came across as harsh, but racers are becoming increasingly annoyed at smoke getting blown into warm, dark places. And the poor retailers like Craig are getting caught in the middle.

Here are a few facts:

1) The HANS device is a good product, but it is not perfect. Just like the Isaac system, or any other product for that matter.

2) The HANS device has experienced multiple, documented instances of the belts slipping off and causing drivers to crash (Barrichello, F1), lose concentration (Takuma Sato, F1) or be sent to the hospital as a result of getting slammed about the cockpit (Justin Wilson, F1).

And if you complain to H/D that your belts slip off your HANS, they will tell you that you are the first.

3) To our knowledge, the only product that has ever trapped drivers in burning cars has been the HANS device. In the case of Bobby LeBonte it had to be removed before he could exit the window of his Cup car, and Jeff Altenberg's HANS got caught on the window net. He could not get out until the net melted.

Sorry Craig. The HANS is good, but it is being misrepresented.