Porsche Blasted by Auto Extremist

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Porsche Blasted by Auto Extremist

Postby Pete Millikin on Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:36 pm

I saw this on the Pelican BBS and since it was pretty provocative, though it might generate some interesting discussion.

Word from Porsche Land is not good. We're hearing from some very big and very important Porsche dealer principals that the Porsche Cayman S is as close to being dead in the water as a new car can be. "Customers come in, call it a Boxster S Coupe, see it's about ten grand more than a regular Boxster S any way you slice it, mutter something about 'why is a Coupe ten grand more than the convertible?' - and then they either start looking at the Boxster S or they walk out. Porche blew the Cayman pricing, period," was the word from one dealer we talked to who shall remain nameless.

Why are we not surprised? When it comes to the basic pricing of their cars (or the even more ridiculously priced options), there is always one overriding factor that Porsche brings to the table - and that is flat-out greed. No auto company in the world has more cojones than Porsche when it comes to overcharging their customers, and unfortunately, customers in the U.S. have born the brunt of Porsche's usurious pricing strategies over the years. But it's a different world now, and there are too many great cars out there that bump up against Porsche in terms of performance - and crush the vaunted German automaker when the question of performance-for-the-dollar is factored in. Traditional Porsche buyers are not amused by the Cayman's pricing - and more importantly, the dealers are not smiling either.

So let's review, shall we? The Cayenne is over, relegated to yesterday's news and piling up on Porsche dealer lots like so much cord wood. The brilliant Carrera GT has run its course in the market, which is not unexpected. After all, the people who could actually afford one are now moving on to what's next - and the dealers who still have one in their showrooms are left to sit there and think about the interest they're paying on them every single day. The 911 market is getting smaller with each Porsche price increase and with each hot new competitor that equals or surpasses it in all the relevant categories, and now the Cayman S, Porsche's most important launch this year, is teetering on the brink of being a non-starter.

We predict a desperate cash-to-dealers program will begin shortly to try to salvage any momentum from the Cayman's launch - good luck with that. This publication has been relentless in its skewering of the exalted Wendelin Wiedeking and his Greed Posse in Zuffenhausen and for good reason, since these guys have demonstrated about as much vision as a carnival barker - which means it only stretches as far as the next show. While ol' Wendelin keeps collecting German business "executive-of-the-year" awards and bathing in his various accolades, a storm is brewing that threatens to derail the vaunted Porsche money train once and for all. Porsche apologists will say that the numbers don't indicate any impending doomsday, but if they can look up from counting their short-term profits long enough, these brainiacs might just have a shot at steering the ship away from the iceberg in time to save it. On second thought, these guys just don't get it, so why expect lucidity and rational thought at this point?


from here http://autoextremist.com/page6.shtml

BTW these are not my views. I think the facts spell out that the performance of the Cayman justifies a price differential over the Boxster S. The bigger question for me is whether the value delivered matches up against competitors.
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I guess it depends how you look at it

Postby gsamad on Sat Feb 11, 2006 4:54 pm

If you look at the Cayman as a mid-engined 911 (not so ludicrous givin the styling) then the price is a bargain. If you look at it as a Boxster S Coupe (which it is), the price is, indeed, ludicrous.

Car & Driver has expressed both of these opinions in the past few months...

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Postby mhknapp on Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:05 pm

I lusted for the Cayman S, but just couldn't justfy spending that kind of money, so I purchased a 2001 Boxster (non-s). I'm very happy with the car, it's everything I had hoped a Porsche would be, perhaps in 3 or 4 years, I can go look for a well cared for 2006 Cayman S, by then the price should be more reasonable.

Having owned a BMW, what Porsche charges seems not much different from BMW, what I find interesting, is the cost of my 30k service was cheaper at the dealer (Pioneer), than the price quoted by two of the local independant dealers.

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Postby Bob Gagnon on Sat Feb 11, 2006 5:41 pm

Forbes magazine, Feb, 4 2002 in an article entitled "Porsche Goes Soccer Mom" by Robyn Meredith discussed Porsche profit margins per vehicle. Forbes claimed that the Turbo had a 45% gross margin while the Boxster S, had the lowest margin Porsche made on a car at 23%.

Given the above, and the complexity of the Boxster roof, I bet the production cost to Porsche (when they have the whole line up) is in the order lowest to highest cost of production:

Cayman<C2 Coupe 911<Boxster<Boxster S<911 Cabriolet< 911C4 models<GT3<GT2<Turbo

But the pricing order is: Boxster<Boxster S<Cayman<911 etc.<GT3<Turbo<GT2

They sell the cars for what they believe they can get for them, not in any relationship to production cost. My guess is, given the simplification of the GT2 compared to the Turbo, their GT2 profit was around 100%.

I think they missed it on the Cayman, it should have come in much less IMHO- particularly when BMW will have the new M Coupe with 343 HP selling for around the same.
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Postby Chris Huck on Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:24 pm

FWIW - Sales of all Porsche models have been great for us at Pioneer. January 2006 stands as highest Porsche sales volume we have ever had.

Interesting to note LA dealers are moving Caymans quickly. Standing volume is very low. While we are selling them well, our Boxster sales are best in the SoCal region. Must be the beautful San Diego winter we are having!

We are even buying cars from dealers where things are slower so we have a better selection for our customers to choose from.

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Postby paul-silver on Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:43 am

Chris Huck wrote:FWIW - Sales of all Porsche models have been great for us at Pioneer. January 2006 stands as highest Porsche sales volume we have ever had.

Interesting to note LA dealers are moving Caymans quickly. Standing volume is very low. While we are selling them well, our Boxster sales are best in the SoCal region. Must be the beautful San Diego winter we are having!

We are even buying cars from dealers where things are slower so we have a better selection for our customers to choose from.

Chris


Chris, you have to keep in mind that the Southern California market is unlike any other in the US. People here are car crazy -- just look at the high number of Porsches on the road in comparison to the rest of the USA. Additionally, what percentage of your customers would you say are true auto enthusiasts who buy the cars for the performance, and what percentage buy them for the prestige?

The new Autoweek has a write-up on the Cayman S in the Driver's Log section, and (a) they raved about the car, and (b) made the same point as mentioned above -- this is either looked at as an outrageously priced Boxster coupe, or a bargain 911. The question is not whether the car performs like the latter, but how is it perceived by most potential customers (in most of the market)?
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Postby Chris Huck on Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:05 pm

"The question is not whether the car performs like the latter, but how is it perceived by most potential customers (in most of the market)?"

Sorry Paul, I strongly disagree!

The only perception that matters is that of the individual who buys the car!

Porsche sold less than 20,000 sports cars last year. Other manufacturers sold WAAY more sports cars than Porsche. Does that mean Porsche is building a bad car because it's not the car MOST sports car buyers buy? Or is Porsche building the right car for SOME people and those people ARE buying the Cayman, the Boxster and the Carrera!

The opinion of the person buying the car, as well as the number of buyers matching the number of cars built, is ALL that matters IMHO.

For everyone else there's a different perfect car out there. ( For me - the 2005 Boxster S . See my avatar ;^) )
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Postby Chris Moon on Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:42 pm

OK, since none of the water-pumper owners have chimed in, I thought this might stir the pot a little.

While I realize that value is not the prime consideration in this part of the market, the current Corvette sure seems like a way better deal. I'm definitely a Porsche fan, but come on: $59K sticker for a Cayman S vs. $44K for a Corvette?! Performance-wise, even the base Corvette is more equal to the 911 Carrerra S than a Cayman S, for 10's of thousands less.

For me anyway, outright performance for the money would be the main factor. I know a Chevy doesn't have the same cache, but to a serious enthusiast for whom brand doesn't matter it seems like an easy choice. Besides, 400hp and 400ft-lbs would soothe a lot of concerns about having bought the cheaper car.

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Postby bobbrand on Mon Feb 13, 2006 11:48 pm

And their club is not as much fun.
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Postby ajackson on Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:10 am

The driving experience in a vette is completely different than a porsche. The sitting position/visibility, the feel of the car going around corners, everything is different. I only AX/DE once a month at the most so I would pick the car that I enjoyed driving most.

They are all very fast cars and we all know that hp isn't the entire factor in laptimes anyway. They are different enough that I would have to drive both and I immagine that I would prefer one to the other in a big way (not sure which I would choose).

For the money, a Cayman S vs a new Z06 would be an interested article.

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Postby ajackson on Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:18 am

Thought this was interesting

6:55* -- 178.699 km/h -- Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg :-D

7:28 --- 166.652 km/h -- Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg
7:32 --- 164.071 km/h - Pagani Zonda F, 650 PS/ 1230 kg
7:40 --- 161.217 km/h - Bugatti 16/4 Veyron, 1001 PS/1980 kg (provato da una
rivista)
7:40 --- 161.217 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren
7:42.9 - 160.207 km/h -- Corvette Z06, 500 PS/1319 kg (provato da Sporbilen
il 26 giugno 2005) <---- qui ci sta un rotfl :-p
7:43 --- 160.173 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3 RS

7:52 --- 157.119 km/h -- Lamborghini Gallardo E-gear, 493 PS/1496 kg
7:54 --- 156.456 km/h -- Porsche 996 GT3
7:55 --- 156.126 km/h - Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg
7:56 --- 155.798 km/h -- Porsche 996 Turbo, 420 PS/1569 kg
7:58 --- 156.652 km/h -- Audi RS4 4.2 V8 FSI, 420 PS/ 1650 kg (:-DDD)
7:59 --- 154.822 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting "Performance"
8:02 --- 153.858 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting "Sport"
8:03 --- 153.540 km/h - Aston Martin V8 Vantage, 385 PS/1636 kg, Pirelli P
Zero Corsa
8:05 --- 152.907 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting "Standard",
Walter Roehrl
8:06 --- 152.592 km/h -- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
8:09 --- 151.656 km/h -- BMW M6, 507 PS/1761 kg
8:10 --- 151.114 km/h -- Aston Martin V8 Vantage
8:11 --- 151,274 km/h -- Porsche Cayman S, 295 PS/1340 kg
8:13 --- 150.426 km/h -- BMW M5 (E60), 507 PS/1844 kg
8:15 --- 149.818 km/h -- Porsche 997 Carrera 2
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Postby ttweed on Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:00 am

ajackson wrote: For the money, a Cayman S vs a new Z06 would be an interested article.
It's not a whole article, but Bev Frohm's writeup about the new Cayman S in the latest WW touches briefly on this comparison. Her remarks were that the Corvette was all about HP and it didn't handle as well as the Cayman. Not surprising, but what model Corvette was used in the comparison test? It just said "Corvette coupe", which is the base 400HP model, not the new 505HP Z06. The MSRP is $45K on that car, compared to the $65K for the Z06. Which is really a better comparison for a $60K Cayman? BTW, if the new WW hasn't hit your mailbox yet, it is up on the website at http://www.pcasdr.org/img/2006/Newsletter/Feb06webB.pdf

I am sure the mid-engine Cayman is a nice-handling package, but the times you posted for the Nurburgring show the Z06 as 28 seconds a lap faster than the Cayman S, and a 10th faster than a 996 GT3RS, which is quite a bit more expensive. That is a lot of bang for the buck, and would make me look long and hard at the Corvette if I was in the market for such a car.

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Postby Dan Chambers on Tue Feb 14, 2006 8:30 am

My Dos Pesos:

Having driven the newers Porsches (997S, 987S .... thanks Chris H.), some "older" 996 and 993's ... and even the 968's ( :shock: :shock: ) and my brother's recently purchased 2005 'Vette C06 .... which, for a 'Vette is a really nice car ..... I can say without equivocation that the Porsches I've driven eclipse the 'Vettes in every way, except perhaps stand-on-the-throttle-neck snapping-off the line - drag racing excelleration. Comfort, fit, attention to detail, completeness, drive-ability, reliability, balance and handling, braking, noise levels, engine tone, road noise at speed .... ALL go to the Porsche (sorry, Brother..). I think you get what you're willing to pay for. I doubt my brother's 06 will last as long, or be as fun to drive in 19 years, as my '87 944 is to drive today ... with 230K miles. :burnout: I've driven both.

IMHO: you get what you pay for. Mustangs, 'Vettes, Vipers .... very impressive beasts with huge HP, lots of muscle and grit ... think WWF (Tat's, muscles, sweat, long stringy hair tied back in a ponytail, certain body-odors, 'roids, plenty of single-syllable sentences :oops: ). The Porsches, and other Euro sports cars ..... think world class gymnastics (clean, power, balance, purpose, efficiency, dominance in the world of athletics 8) ), or world class surfing (endurance, purpose, skill, fearless, pure adrenaline... 8) )

Just MHO......

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Postby ajackson on Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:10 am

Unfortunatly now adays the corvette is lighter and corners better in adition to having much more horsepower. They arne't just drag racers anymore. For a race, I'd take the corvette in a second (even around a road course). Make me choose one to drive 100k miles though and I'd pick the porsche in a second.

Also, don't forget that the cost of a car is purchase price - selling price + maintanance + cost of tied up capitol. I just checked auto trader (with 25 miles of my house) and found a 96 vette for $13k (most in the high teens) while a similar 993 is going for the low to mid $30k's.

Edit: I think JamesGW would probably be the best person to comment on the relative performance potential.
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Postby harnishclan on Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:24 am

Purchase price is one side of a many sided puzzle. Sure the "buy in" is high, but then what about the other sides? The Corvette, like all Chevy's will start to creak and rattle and loose value in a very short period of time. The labor rate is HIGHER to service my Chevy at the dealer than it is to service my 993 at the dealer. I get a free loaner car instead of a ride home in the back of a mini van. The resale value doesn't drop of the face of the earth in a year. The car feels better and lasts longer. There are a bunch of us flat out abusing Porsche hardware that has in excess of 200K miles and more than twenty years old and don't think twice about it. How many other marques can that same statement be applied to? Plus there is just something about putting the key in the left and actually feeling the car work instead of just being an occupant in a mode of transportation. There is a difference between "riding" and "driving" and it doesn't all have to do with 0-60 times.
And that is my dos lire!
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