Porsche Blasted by Auto Extremist

[Jad]

Plus there is just something about putting the key in the left and actually feeling the car work instead of just being an occupant in a mode of transportation.

Ummm, unless you drive from the passenger seat or have a really strange setup, the key goes in on the right side in that car in your avatar , though the rest of your points are still valid

[Dan Chambers]

Ummm, unless you drive from the passenger seat or have a really strange setup, the key goes in on the right side in that car in your avatar , though the rest of your points are still valid

What!?!?! Sheese! The next thing you'll be telling us is the engine of his Porsche is in the front ......and water-cooled.

Oh .. wait a minute.........

[harnishclan]

Jad, actually my ignition switch IS on the left, just like the 993 in the list below my name

[kary]

There are a bunch of us flat out abusing Porsche hardware that has in excess of 200K miles and more than twenty years old and don't think twice about it.

I am not sure that the new cars will take the abuse that the older cars could take for 20 years. Quite a few of the newer cars have significant issues when driven hard over time.

[Chris Moon]

My Dos Pesos:

IMHO: you get what you pay for. Mustangs, 'Vettes, Vipers .... very impressive beasts with huge HP, lots of muscle and grit ... think WWF (Tat's, muscles, sweat, long stringy hair tied back in a ponytail, certain body-odors, 'roids, plenty of single-syllable sentences ). The Porsches, and other Euro sports cars ..... think world class gymnastics (clean, power, balance, purpose, efficiency, dominance in the world of athletics ), or world class surfing (endurance, purpose, skill, fearless, pure adrenaline... )

Just MHO......

Dan'o

Dan, I think you have the current 'Vette confused with a 1979 Firebird Trans Am Screaming Chicken Edition.

Purchase price is one side of a many sided puzzle. Sure the "buy in" is high, but then what about the other sides? The Corvette, like all Chevy's will start to creak and rattle and loose value in a very short period of time. The labor rate is HIGHER to service my Chevy at the dealer than it is to service my 993 at the dealer. I get a free loaner car instead of a ride home in the back of a mini van. The resale value doesn't drop of the face of the earth in a year. The car feels better and lasts longer. There are a bunch of us flat out abusing Porsche hardware that has in excess of 200K miles and more than twenty years old and don't think twice about it. How many other marques can that same statement be applied to? Plus there is just something about putting the key in the left and actually feeling the car work instead of just being an occupant in a mode of transportation. There is a difference between "riding" and "driving" and it doesn't all have to do with 0-60 times.
And that is my dos lire!

At least in my sample size of one Porsche I haven't seen that kind of reliability. I know now I didn't shop long enough and previous owners didn't maintain my car as they should have, but I've done regular maintenance and then some. Right now I'm working on buying the car for the third time because of the cost of that maintenance and parts. OK, so I'm a glutton for financial punishment, but I still love driving the car. I have doubts though, that there are many pre-SC 911's with 200K of autoX or TT miles on them without some serious money put in to keeping them running.

Also, don't forget that the cost of a car is purchase price - selling price + maintanance + cost of tied up capitol. I just checked auto trader (with 25 miles of my house) and found a 96 vette for $13k (most in the high teens) while a similar 993 is going for the low to mid $30k's.

As for comparing a '96 'Vette to a 993, that's really apples and oranges to comparing an '06 'Vette to a Cayman. The '96 was a warmed over C4 from 1984, where a 993 is the best (Kary might say best period) of the air-cooled cars.

Anyway, my real point was just that for someone who wants a really fast car to AutoX or time trial, the performance per dollar is much higher for the current 'Vette than it is for any current Porsche. That's not to say it's better in every respect , just that for less than base 911 money you can have a car that will pace a 911 Turbo at Willow Springs.

CM

[Dan Chambers]

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Chris wrote:
"Dan, I think you have the current 'Vette confused with a 1979 Firebird Trans Am Screaming Chicken Edi.... "
End quote

Chris, did you miss the part about "I've driven both?" Ohh ... I'll say it again. I've driven both. The 'Vette goes fast ... in a straight line. (My 19 year old N/A944 can out-corner / out lateral G-force my brother's new 'Vette. ) Beth F. reiterated this notion in her article in the Witness: great power from the 'Vette with poor cornering.

Chris Wrote:
"I have doubts though, that there are many pre-SC 911's with 200K of autoX or TT miles on them without some serious money put in to keeping them running. "

Apparently, you've never owned a 944 . As to pre-SC's and $$$: Come on! How many early 'Vettes with OEM engine/trans and suspensions are still even running? (Let alone racing, and getting first in class, like TT's early 911S, the Schroeder's '67 S, Jerry Sturm's '67 S. I don't even see a stock, original engine/matching numbers 'Vette out there racing. And, don't even think of comparing a '67 Vette with original equipment, to a '67 911S with original equipment, on an AX/DE course. The 'Vette would be eaten for lunch ... if it were running, that is... ).

Yes, the "newer" Porsches "appear" to have some issues with very hard driving/racing and longevity. Personally, I think that's the driver more than the car. Put a C06 and a Street 911S/997 or 911/997 up against each other in an endurance race, and I'd put money on the P-car finishing while the 'Vette is being fixed in the pits. They are not in the same league. But let's be real here. Put a Z06 'Vette and a GT-2 911 Carerra up against each other? Let's see who would finish first without repairs, and who would last after a season of racing. My money's on the P-car. Yes, you'll pay more, on average, for the P-car. And as I've said ... you get what you pay for.

Bottom line: There are the Porsches .... and then there are all the "followers".

(Caveat emptor: the opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of any one with any common sense or intellect what so ever. Afterall ... it's just the forum.)

BTW: are you coming to the A-X on Saturday? See you there.

Dan'o

[Chris Moon]

I've managed to put myself in the position of cheerleading for Corvette's which was definitely not my intent. I'm a Porsche fan and don't plan on getting rid of my 944 Turbo any time soon. At any rate, let me try again to make my narrowly focused point.

The current Corvette will run comparable lap times on a road course to a current 911 Carrerra S for an up-front cost that is 10's of thousands of dollars less. My opinion comes from the following magazine articles and my own feelings about how I would use a sportscar:

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/co ... index.html
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=1652

Apparently, you've never owned a 944 . As to pre-SC's and $$$: Come on! How many early 'Vettes with OEM engine/trans and suspensions are still even running? (Let alone racing, and getting first in class, like TT's early 911S, the Schroeder's '67 S, Jerry Sturm's '67 S. I don't even see a stock, original engine/matching numbers 'Vette out there racing. And, don't even think of comparing a '67 Vette with original equipment, to a '67 911S with original equipment, on an AX/DE course. The 'Vette would be eaten for lunch ... if it were running, that is... ).

I would never compare an early 'vette to an early 911. They are about as different as possible while both being labeled sportscars. My comment about pre-SC 911's was an answer to harnishclan's (sorry I don't know your first name) statement about many people having run 200K miles on their cars while abusing them in autoX and TT.

Chris, did you miss the part about "I've driven both?" Ohh ... I'll say it again. I've driven both. The 'Vette goes fast ... in a straight line. (My 19 year old N/A944 can out-corner / out lateral G-force my brother's new 'Vette. )

OK, tell me again what suspension work you've had done and what tires both cars are running. I know from lurking here in the forum for a while that your car isn't exactly stock. I'd also bet your brother's 'vette is running the Goodyear run-flats. A tire so wonderful that I'm sure virtually no one runs them in our autoX's.

Put a C06 and a Street 911S/997 or 911/997 up against each other in an endurance race, and I'd put money on the P-car finishing while the 'Vette is being fixed in the pits. They are not in the same league. But let's be real here. Put a Z06 'Vette and a GT-2 911 Carerra up against each other? Let's see who would finish first without repairs, and who would last after a season of racing. My money's on the P-car. Yes, you'll pay more, on average, for the P-car. And as I've said ... you get what you pay for.

While I'd have to agree a Z06 wouldn't outlast a GT2, based on many threads here I wouldn't be so sure about a base 'vette not outlasting a base 997. Oil starvation anyone?

And yes, don't take any of this too seriously. I agree, "(Caveat emptor: the opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of any one with any common sense or intellect what so ever. Afterall ... it's just the forum.) "

Thanks for the invite to the autoX, but as my sig says: My car is hibernating. A spun rod bearing has helped me decide that I'm not putting my car back on the road until I can afford the rebuild, chips, clutch, exhaust and a limited slip. A moot point at the moment because I can't afford them individually, nevermind together. Besides, I'd call myself a TT guy. Having sampled the time trial version of the "go-fast crack pipe", autoX provides neither enough track time nor enough thrill. As an aside anybody that hasn't checked out http://www.nsxfiles.com should really spend some time reading Doug Hayashi's stories. He coined the phrase "go-fast crack pipe" and he's doing exactly what I would if I had his funding.

CM

[ajackson]

I think of the vette vs 911 (or cayman) this way: you get basically similar performance. The price difference is you paying for the porsche build quality, driving pleasure, etc etc.

If I had to spend under $100k on a sports car, it would still be a gt3 (used if you can only spend the price of a base 911). Those have to be the best porsche value out there for performance thrills.

[Dan Chambers]

Chris, I think we're on the same page here. You're right on many points, and I was just having some forum fun.

Speaking of fun: you mentioned my car is "not exactly stock" while my brother's 'Vette is on the "Run-flats." All true. But, where as my brother spent around $62K for his "upgraded" C06 (with monthly payments higher than his rent!!), I've probably invested $15K in my 19-year old 944 in 5 years of ownership ... including initial purchase . So ... who's getting the best bang for the buck, now?

Sorry to hear of spun bearings, and hybernating 951. I'll take a quick lap at the A-X in your honor.

Thanks for the lively chat.

Dan'o

[Curt]

No offense to Porsche or Corvette, but for $54k I'll take one of these over anything Porsche or Chevy has for under $100k.

Only 300 of them are coming to the US. Plus, it's orange.

Lotus EXIGE

[Otto]

Curt:

Good that you bring the Exige to the discussion. It personifies what many of us are looking for in a car, meaning the "minimalist", most "track ready" vehicle at a reasonable price. However, I need to mention that I was very disappointed with the performance of the Exige when it was tested against the Cayman S at Road Atlanta (2.5 mi track), as reported in the current issue of Car and Driver I believe. The Cayman S bested the Exige by 2.7 sec. per lap, which is an eternity, despite the fact that the Exige comes standard with R tires (Yokohama A048). Do not know the tires the Cayman had but presumably they were the stock street tires. The Cayman was as fast or faster in the turns, which could be expected but would lose on the straights. Bottom line, it appears all it needs is a bit more power and torque and it would also be my choice for the money. I have to also agree with Alan that the GT-3 has to be the best Porsche for those of us that are track-oriented.

[mfoley]

Dan,

Don't you mean you'll take a slow lap at the A-X in his honor?

I couldn't resist.

Mark

[Otto]

Sorry, what I meant in my post above is that the Exige was as fast or faster in the turns at Road Atlanta than the Cayman S while the Exige lost big time in the straights.

[martinreinhardt]

I would take one of these Lotus Exige Sport 3.0 liter V6 400hp over any Porsche's even the best of all the GT3

http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Lotus-Sport-Exige.htm

[Curt]

Sorry, what I meant in my post above is that the Exige was as fast or faster in the turns at Road Atlanta than the Cayman S while the Exige lost big time in the straights.

Wow, that seems really interesting doesn't it? Kind of reminds me of how we Porsche owners like to make fun of Corvettes for only being faster than our superior cars in a straight line but not handling or cornering as well as our beloved Porsches.

So what do we say when there is another company that is TOTALLY kicking our a$$es at the thing we have always taken the most pride in? Compared to a Lotus, Porsche is making big, fat, lumbering MUSCLE cars.

I'm with Martin on the EXIGE with the V6.