Sway Bar find

[Mmagus]

I like to think about "what ifs" on Tuffy and was thinking, what if I could add a stiffer rear sway bar? So I started with searching Weltmeisters and then went to 924S rear sway bar. I found the usual Paragon, Lindsay Racing, sites then happened on Jegs where they have this. http://www.jegs.com/i/ADDCO/020/307/10002/-1 Since a 22.225mm sway bar, with brackets, bushings, bolts etc for $150 seemed like a fairly good price I thought i would pass it along. They also have a decent selections of bars for various models.

Mark

[JERRY B]

TOOOOOO BIG FOR TUFFY Oh wait never mind, Go for it

[Mmagus]

TOOOOOO BIG FOR TUFFY Oh wait never mind, Go for it

Thanks for the "encouragment" Jerry.

I have to buy tires so I wouldnt be getting one anytime soon anyway. However, when the Spec folks set up their 944's / 924S cars isnt that about the standard rear size?

[mrondeau]

Mark,

When you start to modify the suspension (sway bars, springs, torsion bars), you need to do them together so that they work with each other instead of against each other. When I first got the 944S, the rear had stiff torsion bars and an adjustable sway bar and the front had soft springs and a slightly larger than stock sway bar. The car did not handle well at all. The first thing (and one of the best things) I did was have the car aligned and corner balanced. I was then able to properly evaluate the suspension and decide on what improvements to make. I have since changed the springs and front sway bar to match the rate of the torsion bars and I can now use the rear sway bar and it's adjustments. Ask people what works for them and get rides in those cars. Some people are running up to 500# front springs with 30mm rear torsions which is super stiff and works best on a fast big track like WSIR. Most spec cars are running 400# springs w/30mm rear torsions. I'm running 350# springs and 28mm rear torsions which seems to be working for me at AX and big tracks. The most important thing is to find a set up you like.

Good luck.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Also keep in mind that the correct spring rate is determined by available grip as well a car weight, and must be adjusted every time the grip changes if the car is to work it's best.
With 40 psi in 275/40/17 R compound tires on 9" rims all around and 3250 pounds weight with driver and fuel (I think my Suburban weighs less ) the correct spring rate for my car is 725 pounds/inch front, 860+ pounds/inch rear.
400 pound springs in a 2400 pound full up weight spec 944 is stiff.

[Mmagus]

Thanks guys for the introduction to suspension . It has been a bit of a mystery (well much of it still is to be honest). I actually am VERY happy with the way Tuffy handles now running non-adjustable Bilstein shocks, #250 Weltmeister Springs, The Turbo front swaybar and either the 16mm or 18mm rear swaybar (I havnt actually measured it yet) . He corners fairly flat, I rarely have understeer, and if anything gets out of sorts its usually a tail-happy oversteer situation though it has always been controlable. (Yes I know a spin is in my future at somepoint). The one issue I do fight is wheel spin, but that is probably mainly me getting on the throttle too heavily comming out of turns. I am believing he will handle even better with a new set of tires as I have a mix and match set of 205's on him now.

The primary reason for the thread was to share what seemed to be a reasonably priced Sway Bar.

The secondary has come to be: Just how good could you get a GSS car to handle, using only the points alowed? A case in point would be Paul's car Snickers, granted a different car, however what makes it such an amazing competetor is that it handles like a car several classes up while still being legal for ISS. Perhaps Tuffy is already at his limit? I am not necessarily looking for change...just curious about what "could" be done and this is the place for chatting that around...or....I think it is...right?

[ttweed]

I am believing he will handle even better with a new set of tires as I have a mix and match set of 205's on him now.
[snipped]
Perhaps Tuffy is already at his limit? I am not necessarily looking for change...just curious about what "could" be done...

Mark,
As Dave mentions above, the car's handling characteristics will change according to grip levels. Because your tires are the single most important component in that equation, don't make any judgments or commitments about what might be necessary to maximize Tuffy's performance (or how close you are getting to its limit) until you land on your final tire choice. Chasing your ideal setup while driving on a mismatched set of tires is a waste of time. Just drive the car hard and hone your reflexes and technique until you use up your old rubber, then worry about getting the most out of the car (and your tires) when you have a new, fresh, matched set.

With a GS/S car, you have 8 points to play with. Rules have changed since I ran in that class, but I would spend them on spring rates (2), sway bars (2), going up one size on tires if you can fit them (or install a limited slip diff if you can't) (2), and a camber plate/monoball front suspension (2) IF I were playing there now with my old car. I would get a set of the current "street tire du jour" (I used to love the Falken Azenis, but they have been surpassed these days I think, by either the new Dunlops or Hankooks), get the car aligned aggressively and cornerbalanced, then start adjusting sway bars for a good handling balance.

My $.02, (YMMV)

TT

[Mmagus]

Tires ordered Hankook Ventus R-S3

With two sets of wheels I will use the old ones for transport to biger events.

[mrondeau]

Thanks guys for the introduction to suspension . It has been a bit of a mystery (well much of it still is to be honest). I actually am VERY happy with the way Tuffy handles now running non-adjustable Bilstein shocks, #250 Weltmeister Springs, The Turbo front swaybar and either the 16mm or 18mm rear swaybar (I havnt actually measured it yet) . He corners fairly flat, I rarely have understeer, and if anything gets out of sorts its usually a tail-happy oversteer situation though it has always been controlable. (Yes I know a spin is in my future at somepoint). The one issue I do fight is wheel spin, but that is probably mainly me getting on the throttle too heavily comming out of turns. I am believing he will handle even better with a new set of tires as I have a mix and match set of 205's on him now.

Mark,

You have 6 points to play with in your class. You're only using 4 of them and probably not optimizing those 4. As Tom says, tires will make the biggest difference. I would start with 225's all the way around in one of the 140+ treadware tires du jour. Get the car aligned and corner balanced and then drive the wheels off of it. You'll be surprised at how well it'll handle and feel. When I was in GS, it was a 6 point car with RA1's on it. (2 pts for springs/torsion bar, 2 points for sway bar and 2 points for tires).

The spin in your future is a good thing at an AX. It'll teach you the limits of your car and how much input is just too much. The wheel spin is something you have to learn to live with by rolling on the throttle as come out of a corner unless you get a limited slip.

[pdy]

Tires ordered Hankook Ventus R-S3

With two sets of wheels I will use the old ones for transport to biger events.

Hmmmm. I tried several outlets for R-S3 in 225/45-15, and was told they were on National backorder until July.

Are you a grashopper or a locust?

[Mmagus]

Hmmmmm... Perhaps a Locust as I consumed the last set of 4? I ordered them from America's Tire just this morning and he said they would be in Friday or so. Maybe he "thinks" he will have them and we will find differently

[ttweed]

You have 6 points to play with in your class.

OOPS! You're right, Mark. S/S in A-J classes is only 6 points of improvements, not the 8 that Stock class gets, so you have to strike 2 points from my menu of improvements above. Since you're talking 225 street tires, which are 0 points in G, and no LSD installed, stopping with the 4 points for springs and swaybars is probably smart for now. If you do move up to Stock class, you may want to try a 4-point tire some time, without bumping yourself into P.

TT

[mrondeau]

You have 6 points to play with in your class.

OOPS! You're right, Mark. S/S in A-J classes is only 6 points of improvements, not the 8 that Stock class gets, so you have to strike 2 points from my menu of improvements above. Since you're talking 225 street tires, which are 0 points in G, and no LSD installed, stopping with the 4 points for springs and swaybars is probably smart for now. If you do move up to Stock class, you may want to try a 4-point tire some time, without bumping yourself into P.

TT

Mark, Come on.... play with us in GP. I promise I'll be nice....no, really.

[MTrotter]

Mark, your car is set up fairly proper for GS. The only change I would make is 28mm rear torsion bars and the cheap cheap MO30 rear sway bar. $130 then a quick corner balance and contact me for alignment specs, ill give you some good starting points... and you can work from there.
That would pretty much max out your points for GSS and a set of Rcomps would put you on top.. yes on top of GS if driven well.
The front sway bar is a 26.8mm MO30 bar not the turbo bar.... so 300lb springs might be a nice upgrade if you move away from street tires. Also, if I can make a recommendation.... The Hankooks are ok, but having driven on them a bit I would say that there are superior tires out there for around the same cost. Im partial to the Kumho XS and Dunlop starspec personally. just food for thought.
Im glad to see you are enjoying the car! get some 225's on it and kick some butt!

[Mmagus]

Mark, your car is set up fairly proper for GS. The only change I would make is 28mm rear torsion bars and the cheap cheap MO30 rear sway bar. $130 then a quick corner balance and contact me for alignment specs, ill give you some good starting points... and you can work from there.
That would pretty much max out your points for GSS and a set of Rcomps would put you on top.. yes on top of GS if driven well.
The front sway bar is a 26.8mm MO30 bar not the turbo bar.... so 300lb springs might be a nice upgrade if you move away from street tires. Also, if I can make a recommendation.... The Hankooks are ok, but having driven on them a bit I would say that there are superior tires out there for around the same cost. Im partial to the Kumho XS and Dunlop starspec personally. just food for thought.
Im glad to see you are enjoying the car! get some 225's on it and kick some butt!

Thanks for the pointers Morgan...I truely LOVE the car. He really is part of the family. I am sticking with the set up on it now as I really am working on learning and seat time . I will contact you simply to have the specs on hand should I make changes. What is kicking my tail right now is that I am needing tires, I bought the correct offest 15" rims to run 225's...and can't find a 225/something/15 tire with a decent GSS treadwear rating Hankooks are out for months...I noticed that the discontinued Proxes R1-R were 140 rated so maybe I can find some.