2nd Round of Z8 Rules Proposals for 2015...

[rshon]

... has started, for comment by Oct 31.

See what proposals were accepted, rejected, and/or modified:

http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php

and send your comments to Rules@Zone8.org

[Ianc2]

Hey Russell .
I have a query regarding the gt3 LSD .
Am I right in thinking owners of these cars need not take points for an LSD as it's included in the base points ?
If this is the case , will this also extend to my car ?
All PDk Carreras 4s come with LSD as stock .

I THINK** c2s with a certain suspension option also get an LSD


**. I have this info on a factory PDF , but My iPad took a swim in the pool so I can only clarify when it dries out .

[rshon]

Hey Ian.

This is a common misconception. Currently, no cars have any performance equipment points built into their base point number, so the base points only represent HP/weight, factory wheel width, and model year. The system does allow for base points adjustments for particular models, but currently this is only used on 356's (a "handicap" base point subtractor) and all mid-engined cars (a 15-point base point adder to 914's, Boxsters, Caymans, Carrera GT's, and the 918).

This is why all the sports models (Turbos, GT3, GT3RS, GT2, and cars that come with a "sport suspension" upgrade over the base model) must take additional points for their suspension/aero/brake packages, and this also applies to LSD, PDK, and PASM. The reason the system is currently setup this way is because we have to provide a path for those in the CC classes who end up modifying their cars, removing some of the factory upgrades in the process (the most common example is suspension components, aero, and brakes). In these cases, the car would remove the points for the "package" and instead take the points "a la carte".

Although we want the system to stay flexible in this way, the most common classification error is people forgetting to take points for factory LSD and factory modified gear ratios (on late model GT3RS'), so Round 2 Driving Event Proposal #5 is a proposed way to deal with this by putting the assessment in the base points, as it's unlikely the owners of these cars would remove these features.

If as you say some of the late model Carrera PDK cars also come stock with LSD, and this initiative passes, then we would also look at these other models when updating the base point data base.

[Ianc2]

Thanks for the clarification Russell .
Rule 3 may also need looking at in the future as some caymans arrive from the factory with an LSD ...

[ttweed]

Thanks for the clarification Russell .
Rule 3 may also need looking at in the future as some caymans arrive from the factory with an LSD ...

I don't think so. Proposal #3 is just assigning points for a suspension option package that is not currently covered in the rules. The same rationale as rule proposal #5 would not apply in that case, as it is not standard equipment for the model. There are no Caymans built with LSD as standard equipment--it is always an option (in the 981, it is included with PTV). You would take the 20 modification points for factory or aftermarket LSD in that case, you would not alter the base points as for the GT3 or RS, which have LSD on all examples as standard. Perhaps if there is an actual "GT4" model based on the Cayman in the future, which had LSD as standard, it would apply then.

That said, I don't think proposal # 5 should be approved. The rationale is that owners "forget" to take the points for LSD and/or short gears because they are standard equipment, and thus they should have the points bundled into the base points instead. I find it hard to believe that this is a big problem at our events. How many times has it happened? Those cars are fairly rare and it should be obvious if they are misclassed. All anyone has to do is look up their competitor's car on the Zone 8 site to see if they are taking the necessary points for standard performance equipment and mention it to them if there is an oversight, or protest them if the owner isn't cooperative. If they are in SS class, it doesn't matter anyway, since the points only come into play in the CC classes. It seems to me we are creating a bigger problem for those who have been adding their performance points on correctly for years by making them change their practice at this point, and it sets a precedent for the future where we will have to treat any model with such standard equipment the same way (such as Ian's C4S example) if applicable. It seems more consistent to maintain the performance equipment modification points for everyone the same, whether standard equipment or not.

TT

[Ianc2]

Hey tom .

Cayman R has LSD stock .
Option on cayman and cayman s

I got access to my factory data on the drowned iPad through my iPhone .
997.2 Carrera s coupe with factory pasm includes LSD .
997.2 Carrara 4 all models have stock LSD .
So does taking pasm points on a c2s cover the LSD ?

I simply added it as a performance mod to my car on the zone8 site .
Pretty easily done .
If you know your car .
However , I've known owners of the same car as mine that had no idea .

It doesn't really concern me
But I'll be watching the 200 tread wear rule before I buy new tyres for the Boxster .
I messed up the pss9 classification on that car and gave it too many points , so now have spare points to play with .

[ttweed]

Hey tom .
Cayman R has LSD stock .
Option on cayman and cayman s

Ah, I forgot about the R. It also has the sport suspension as standard, and is being included in proposal #3 w/ the Boxster Spyder, as their suspension is equivalent to the X73 option on the 981.

997.2 Carrera s coupe with factory pasm includes LSD .
997.2 Carrara 4 all models have stock LSD .

So including the Cayman R, that's 3 other models that should be included in proposal 5--even more of a reason not to approve it, as it isn't comprehensive and leads us down a slippery slope of having to revise the rules for each applicable model as they appear. Better to just educate people that they need to take points for LSD (or short gears), unless running in SS, where any factory equipment as delivered is legal.

So does taking pasm points on a c2s cover the LSD ?

No. The 20 points for PASM are for the suspension improvement. LSD is a separate category of drivetrain improvement, and another 20 points.

TT

[Ianc2]

Don't forget the Turbos tom !!
Stock since the 3.6 965 iirc ?


Tbh , with a gt3 it's pretty obvious what they have and what they don't have .
It's with other models in the "modern" h2o line-up that cause confusion .
But having said that it's probably easier to over-classify like I did , then get clarification from zone8 later .

[ttweed]

But having said that it's probably easier to over-classify like I did , then get clarification from zone8 later.

Or just give up chasing all the changes in the CC class rules and run in SS class, like I have.
TT

[Ianc2]

A simple thing like removing one of the 3 rear mufflers automatically put me in cc11 .
But it's worth it just to annoy the nieghbours at 5:45 each morning

Seriously though , the 200 tread wear change could have big implications to the ss classes .

I'm taking a 20 point hit for my rs3s , but now they have been reclassified as a 200 tyre anyone can run them . Either in cc taking no points , or ss .
If we change the rule this year , could they appear next year rated over 200 ?
I'm right on the limit of cc11 so it is what it is , but the Boxster got points back for the pss-9s so I now have a choice of 140 tires , or 200 tires and gt3-tarrett ARBs whilst still just staying out of cc7 .
If this rule change gets denied I get to do both

[ttweed]

Seriously though , the 200 tread wear change could have big implications to the ss classes.

No, it won't. It only effects the CC (Points) classes. Proposal #7 only changes the "points assessment for modifications" section of the rules, III.B. There is no change proposed to the SS class definition wording in D.1 for prohibited modifications which states: "Tire tread wear ratings less than 140 or less than the OEM tire tread wear for that model and year of car, whichever is lower." If your car was delivered from the factory on 100 treadwear tires, you can run them in SS class. The points assessments for tires (III.B.) only applies if you modify your car and move into the CC (Points) classes. There are no points assessments for SS class, just prohibited mods.

I'm taking a 20 point hit for my rs3s , but now they have been reclassified as a 200 tyre anyone can run them . Either in cc taking no points , or ss .
If we change the rule this year , could they appear next year rated over 200 ?

I don't think that PCA is a big enough factor to influence the manufacturers. SCCA Solo is the driving factor behind the current change of many 140-180 tires to 200. What I do think may happen is that if the PCRs change the SS class minimum treadwear rating from 140 to 200 next year (as I have heard is contemplated), then Z8 may follow suit and change our SS rules to match that.

TT

[Ianc2]

Thanks for the clarication tom .
I THINK I understand it now .
So if your car came with 200 tyres you can now run rs3s (a 140 in disguise) in SS without having to enter the cc classes ?

[mrondeau]

So including the Cayman R, that's 3 other models that should be included in proposal 5--even more of a reason not to approve it, as it isn't comprehensive and leads us down a slippery slope of having to revise the rules for each applicable model as they appear. Better to just educate people that they need to take points for LSD (or short gears), unless running in SS, where any factory equipment as delivered is legal.
TT

Tom, Good point. This system is pretty easy to use as is. For example: Classifying a 2009 GT3 will automatically check the correct Discount Package as well as the LSD option. If there is any question on what should be included, users can click on "more" and more information regarding that rule will pop up. It's the easiest system I've run across for car classification as well as allowing you to print out your pre-filled tech form for each event. I don't think it's the system that's the problem. If it isn't broke, why fix it?

[ttweed]

I THINK I understand it now.
So if your car came with 200 tyres you can now run rs3s (a 140 in disguise) in SS without having to enter the cc classes ?

Not quite--ANYONE can run a 140 or higher tire in SS. You do not need to use a tire treadwear grade equal to or greater than what the car was delivered with, you are allowed to use any tire with 140 or greater treadwear freely in SS. The qualifier in the rule is that if your car came from the factory with LESS than 140 tires, you are also allowed to use those. I believe some of the GT3/GT2/RS cars were delivered with R-comp Michelin Sport Cups that had a treadwear rating of 80 at one time. The "whichever is lower" qualifier was intended to allow those cars to run in SS class if otherwise unmodified, despite the fact that they were spec'd with tires of < 140 UTQG. That was my understanding of the rationale at the time, anyway...

TT

[rshon]

The deadline for comments to the Zone 8 Rules committee is coming up on October 31.

http://www.zone8.org/events/rules/proposed.php

Send your input (both supporting and/or dissenting) to Rules@Zone8.org .