Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby cag4 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 10:54 pm

Thanks Tom -- doesn't seem like there's an easy way to see where all the current SS drivers would slot into the CC classes, assuming they were still "showroom stock" and hadn't made any significant upgrades.

Looking at last weekend's autocross, seems we tend to have several classes in both SS and CC where there are 6-8 participants, plus several classes where we have between 1 and 3. Other than getting home a few minutes early, I guess I don't see the value in having classes with 12-15 participants, where all but 3 are not acknowledged in some way. I'm guessing that about twice as many people would just run their last run, check their time on their phone, pack up and head home... I think the after-parties are fun so that would kinda suck ;-)

The challenge with competition clubs like ours is that we always need a steady stream of new recruits... without that, the top folks keep winning, getting all the glory, and eventually they look around and only see themselves. No new volunteers, no new instructors, and eventually, as the older folks quit or move on... nobody left.

I like the SS classes because, presumably, someone can get a stock car, either new or used, come out and compete more or less competitively with others in reasonably similar vehicles... no dealing with points, or competing head-to-head with folks who are closet racing engineers. If we do it right, they get seriously addicted, and either buy hotter cars, or start down that slippery slope of modifying their cars because they want to be more competitive, either in their class or over-all. With the SS vs CC class structure, other than buying the stickiest stock size rubber when they wear out their first set, and getting an autocross alignment, there's not a lot they can do before they have to jump into a CC class... and then we got 'em! Pretty soon they are instructing, doing TTs at big tracks, and becoming corner-working chairmen ;-)

I do think folks who compete exclusively in SS classes year after year, and keep tweaking their settings to gain an advantage within their SS class need to take a good look in the mirror and decide if they are really competing within the spirit of the SS class structure... but I don't think we can legislate that decision for them. Just make the requirements for SS class really strict... Same size wheels and tires as stock, only options that were available on the car from the factory, and alignments that maximize the handling potential of the unmodified suspension. Then let the best drivers win!

Also, WRT to us trying to decide what treadwear competition tires *really* have, vs what the manufacturers rate them at... that's just silly.

My $.02 worth,
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Greg Phillips on Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:31 am

cag4 wrote:I seem to recall that when I classified Katrin's '05 Boxster, I basically had the option of SS02, or CC0x. Does anyone know where that handy little chart is that would tell us where each SS class would slot into the CC classes prior to any additional modifications?

All of the cars that are registered on the Zone 8 classification website have their CC class and their SS class (if eligible) listed.
http://zone8.pca.org/CarClass/Default.aspx

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jgunn on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:36 am

I think SS serves a purpose -- Stock cars grouped together with similar performance. Porsche makes some great cars, and they can be driven stock with little to no deficit (get a good alignment). You can have great competition between drivers in the same car with the same tires without "Builder" skills muddying the driver skills competition. Avoiding the need to modify/spec them to try and game your way to the top of a CC class. Some want to drive the cars and try to get good heads up competition in a street-able car.

Now tires... I can tell you that there will always be a better tire for any given purpose as time marches on, and some may even have special tires not available to all. A tire like the RE71R is a great replacement tire for SS cars in my opinion, and Bridgestone seems to be coming out with all the sizes Porsches need. It wears well, has great grip, works well for AX and Track use, and is less expensive than the OEM tires. If you are running SS, this is the perfect tire if you can get it in a size that fits your car, and There-in lies the rub... New tires don't always (in fact, they never do) come out in tire sizes for every car in a class. If you are competitive, and enjoying running in a class with other cars that have different tire sizes, they could easily get an edge on you with each new tire innovation cycle. This is an age old problem, and as Jad said it is just a fact of life. We aren't getting paid for this, so it's OK... There is a good solution to this dilemma --> mandate Spec Tires for SS...

Spec Tires -- if you want to keep it simple and even the playing field then have everyone running the same tires. Make any changes in the Off season, so you don't rock the boat once the season is in flight. Likely the only tire that really meets all the different cars in SS size diversity requirements, provides great wear, and with good enough grip is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

Maybe Michelin could be convinced to sponsor the series with some Tire Contingencies for Zone 8 events and overall winners of the Region and Zone series (AX, TT, etc.)? I can't see mandating a tire like the PSC2 without some deep discounts on them from Michelin. For those who want to drive their stock car on any other tire (including Hoosier) -- let them, but exclude them from Trophies and the year end Class points in SS. Leave CC to their current system.

I am sure there are better ideas, but this is all I could come up with... :wink:
Last edited by jgunn on Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jbrennen on Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:36 pm

jgunn wrote:Spec Tires -- if you want to keep it simple and even the playing field then have everyone running the same tires. You review new Spec tire options annually and make changes before the season begins. Currently, Probably the only tire that really meets all the different cars in SS size diversity requirements, and provides great wear with good enough grip is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.


Just a vote of confidence in the Michelin PSS to add here. At the most recent AX, I got a #5 BRI result on Michelin PSS tires, and the car owner wasn't far behind me. They're very predictable. They're also really nice street tires -- I run them as daily driver tires on my car, only switching to RE-71R tires for AX events.

I personally think the RE-71R is a little too hardcore for a daily driven car. If you only use your Porsche for weekend fun drives, you might like it -- and I'm sure that fits a lot of club members. But I daily drive my car for commuting, and the difference in things like ride quality and noise between the PSS and the RE-71R is noticeable.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby SuperCobraPilot on Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:15 pm

Okay, I am finally weighing in... Lots of members here have MANY options when it comes to tires. With the 2004 GT3 I am EXTREMELY limited in my options. The issue for me is the 295-30-18 rear spec tire size. My current tire options are: PSC, PS2, PZero, and Bridgestone S-02. I had a set of Falken Azenis FK453s but they were 300 tread wear and I was only competitive when the tires were brand new. Aside from the Falkens, my choices are all twice the price of RE-71Rs and I WENT DOWN 10mm in the rear to 285s in order to use them. They are a great tire and since so many people are using them, it seems not to make sense to ban the tire. I didn't like losing to 2014 C2s shod with RE-71Rs so I went out and got some, equalizing the grip. Everyone is going to need new tires at some point, why not buy the RE-71Rs for your car and stop trying to get them DQ'd? They work well, and are inexpensive... what's not to like?
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby ttweed on Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:35 am

SuperCobraPilot wrote:With the 2004 GT3 I am EXTREMELY limited in my options.
Try having a 991 GT3 with 20" rims if you want to really experience limited options in tires. :evil:

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Greg Phillips on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:07 pm

ttweed wrote:
SuperCobraPilot wrote:With the 2004 GT3 I am EXTREMELY limited in my options.
Try having a 991 GT3 with 20" rims if you want to really experience limited options in tires. :evil:

TT

OK don't expect the GT3 drovers to get much sympathy :roflmao:

The RE71R tires are a fine tire, but should not be given fewer points than something like the Nitto NT01.
The points system needs to have some consistency. If a modification (or tire) gives too much of an advantage, its points should be adjusted.
Don't need to be banned, just their points corrected to reflect their performance.

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:37 pm

And start an endless battle every year when the next "cheater" tire comes out?

No matter what the tire is, there will always be one that is a bit better than others in its TW rating.
At the end of the day, it is an even playing field with everyone having the same access to a specific tire. If a specific size is not available, it is still the same for everyone wanting to use that tire.
Maybe you have to go up or down in size a bit, but still it's the same for everyone. If you can't get Re-71s, there are other 200TW tires with damn near the same performance
It all about the driver anyway.........

And I agree, little sympathy for GT-3 owners :surr:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jgunn on Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:16 pm

I would just up the number of points for 200TW tires. All of them are stepping up the performance envelope. BFG Rival S is as fast as RE71R, and the Kumho is very close. Next year there will be more improvements.
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Greg Phillips on Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:17 pm

jgunn wrote:I would just up the number of points for 200TW tires. All of them are stepping up the performance envelope. BFG Rival S is as fast as RE71R, and the Kumho is very close. Next year there will be more improvements.


So I called out the leading contenders:

B. Soft compound high performance tires (DOT Street legal) with a
DOT tread wear rating of 140-200 20
Bridgestone RE-71R, Kumho V720, BFG Rival S, Dunlop Direzza
ZII Star tires 40

DOT tread wear rating of 50-139 40
DOT tread wear rating of 1-49 80
DOT tread wear rating of 0 or Unrated 120

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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby JayG on Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:54 pm

Why?????

What happens when another tire comes out next year that is even higher performance?
We go through all this nonsense again?
This becomes endless!!!!

At the end of the day, if I can put on RE-71R, Kumho V720, BFG Rival S on my type car, so can you, so what is the issue?

Do we start putting points on the tech that works on the car? The certainly is an advantage to certain techs over other ones

In any case, the Dunlops are not nearly as sticky as the others

Wait until in order to run 200 TW or below it has to be N rated :banghead:
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby Gary Burch on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:17 am

jgunn wrote:I would just up the number of points for 200TW tires. All of them are stepping up the performance envelope. BFG Rival S is as fast as RE71R, and the Kumho is very close. Next year there will be more improvements.


the things we worry about...
racing is unfair,
trying to legislate unfair into fair is ... unfair.
next time you need tires buy cheater tires, and never look back,
unless you realize the reason you're losing is not the tires afterall

all tires over 100 should be free anyway
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Re: Call for Zone 8 Rules Change Proposals for 2017

Postby jgunn on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:21 am

Gary Burch wrote:
jgunn wrote:I would just up the number of points for 200TW tires. All of them are stepping up the performance envelope. BFG Rival S is as fast as RE71R, and the Kumho is very close. Next year there will be more improvements.


the things we worry about...
racing is unfair,
trying to legislate unfair into fair is ... unfair.
next time you need tires buy cheater tires, and never look back,
unless you realize the reason you're losing is not the tires afterall

all tires over 100 should be free anyway


Agreed

jgunn wrote:Now tires... I can tell you that there will always be a better tire for any given purpose as time marches on, and some may even have special tires not available to all. A tire like the RE71R is a great replacement tire for SS cars in my opinion, and Bridgestone seems to be coming out with all the sizes Porsches need. It wears well, has great grip, works well for AX and Track use, and is less expensive than the OEM tires. If you are running SS, this is the perfect tire if you can get it in a size that fits your car, and There-in lies the rub... New tires don't always (in fact, they never do) come out in tire sizes for every car in a class. If you are competitive, and enjoying running in a class with other cars that have different tire sizes, they could easily get an edge on you with each new tire innovation cycle. This is an age old problem, and as Jad said it is just a fact of life. We aren't getting paid for this, so it's OK... There is a good solution to this dilemma --> mandate Spec Tires for SS...

Spec Tires -- if you want to keep it simple and even the playing field then have everyone running the same tires. Make any changes in the Off season, so you don't rock the boat once the season is in flight. Likely the only tire that really meets all the different cars in SS size diversity requirements, provides great wear, and with good enough grip is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport.

I am sure there are better ideas, but this is all I could come up with... :wink:
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Re-71 tyre sizing

Postby kleggo on Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:56 am

SuperCobraPilot wrote:Okay, I am finally weighing in... Lots of members here have MANY options when it comes to tires. With the 2004 GT3 I am EXTREMELY limited in my options. The issue for me is the 295-30-18 rear spec tire size.
and I WENT DOWN 10mm in the rear to 285s in order to use them. They are a great tire and since so many people are using them, it seems not to make sense to ban the tire. I didn't like losing to 2014 C2s shod with RE-71Rs so I went out and got some, equalizing the grip. Everyone is going to need new tires at some point, why not buy the RE-71Rs for your car and stop trying to get them DQ'd? They work well, and are inexpensive... what's not to like?


I agree and cry a little bit when i re-check the Bridgestone site and see they still don't make a 295-30 X 18 for the GT3 or appropriately sized tyres for the F360. sigh.

The re-71s are so good that losing 10mm by going down to 285 probably doesn't hurt you grip-wise.
Tell me more, (via pm if you want) and let me know what size fronts you chose to match the 285 rears.


SCP, sent you a PM, please check your inbox and reply to my email addy.

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Re: Re-71 tyre sizing

Postby jbrennen on Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:18 am

kleggo wrote:The re-71s are so good that losing 10mm by going down to 285 probably doesn't hurt you grip-wise.


I agree with this. Data to back it up... These have been my PCA-SDR event results on fresh RE-71R tires (first event on the tires):

Code: Select all
Date        Delta from TTOD    TTOD standing    BRI standing    Tire section widths
2015-06-20     0.19                2/116            2/118           245/275
2016-02-06     1.23                3/99             3/103           245/275
2016-07-17     0.73                2/95             2/96            235/265


Event results on the tires' second events:

Code: Select all
Date        Delta from TTOD    TTOD standing    BRI standing    Tire section widths
2015-07-11     2.34                8/85             6/88            245/275
2016-03-26     0.87                3/97             2/100           245/275
2016-08-28     2.00                4/82             4/83            235/265


I dropped 10mm all around for the most recent tire purchase, and my relative performance didn't suffer in any statistically measurable way.
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