911 Club Coupe

[Bob Gagnon]

Interesting point on the "less is more" philosophy as Porsche sees it.

I read in Forbes magazine that the margin (not the dealer margin) on a Turbo is 35% for Porsche AG.

A GT2 has to be cheaper to produce, the interior is simpler and there is less equipment, there is no 4 wheel drive, the rear spoiler is simpler, the engine has to cost the same to produce. Only thing that costs more is the PCCB brakes.

Given the 35% margin on the normal turbo and the huge price increase for the GT2, I bet Porsche made over 100% margin per unit on a GT2. "less (equipment) is more $$$"

[MikeD]

Given the 35% margin on the normal turbo and the huge price increase for the GT2, I bet Porsche made over 100% margin per unit on a GT2. "less (equipment) is more $$$"

Heck, if I could get away with it I would charge my customers more and do less work too.

[Bob Gagnon]

Mike- That's the problem as I see it, we (the market) let them get away with it

Porsche have subtracted value but not decreased the price in an exploitation of the brand name.

Interesting in the new Car and Driver, there is an ad for the new Z06 highlighting all the light technologies in it. There is even a Miata ad pointing out the alloy body panels, hollow stab bars etc Mazda uses in it. BMW has a magnesium/aluminum engine described in the magazine used in the new 330. There is an editorial about light materials in motorcycles.

The funny thing is much of this stuff was used by Porsche in the 1960's, 1970's and 1980's on various models. If Porshe still used these light weight technologies, the 911 would weigh in around 250 pounds less- but apparently it is unnecessary to market the car, so why do it? Better to not use the technology and make more money since the market apparently isn't sensitive to the loss....

[David J Marguglio]

Yes Bob, it is a most interesting point. At present, Porsche seems to be riding on perceived value and brand loyalty. As that perceived value falls over time it will not be long before the public realizes that they are loyal to a brand that is not loyal to them. Undoubtably the performance and tactile aspects of the new cars are improved, but there seems to be a disconect as it relates to value. I am all for Porsche making money and I know that it insures the viability of the company, but am the only one that has grown weary of hearing about the record profits? How about investing some of those profits back into the cars in the form of better content or lower cost? Actually the Cayman is a perfect example of this less is more idea. Porsche, perhaps realizing that it could not get away with charging more money for a decontented and lower cost to build boxster, it circumvented the problem with a "new" model. Oh brother.

[Jad]

While I totally agree Porsche has gotten greedy recently, you also have to remember they basically haven't changed their prices in 15-20 years. A base 1986 944 Turbo, is roughly equivalent in the line up to the base Boxster today and both are/were a bit over $40K, move to the performance versions, the turbo S or Boxster S and you pay a bit over $50K, my 89 964 C4 listed for $80K which is almost exactly what a 997 C4 would list for. They certainly play more games with gimicks like the chrono package to get what should be standard, but overall I would have to say they have increased prices FAR less than the competition for the last 15-20 years, Civics can be over $20k these days!

[kary]

While I totally agree Porsche has gotten greedy recently, you also have to remember they basically haven't changed their prices in 15-20 years. A base 1986 944 Turbo, is roughly equivalent in the line up to the base Boxster today and both are/were a bit over $40K, move to the performance versions, the turbo S or Boxster S and you pay a bit over $50K, my 89 964 C4 listed for $80K which is almost exactly what a 997 C4 would list for. They certainly play more games with gimicks like the chrono package to get what should be standard, but overall I would have to say they have increased prices FAR less than the competition for the last 15-20 years, Civics can be over $20k these days!

Jad, I agree they have not really changed the dollar value over the years even though inflation has taken out some value, but I have to say that Porsche took out the quality in parts to make up for that.

In order to get a comparable car today versus the pre-money making days of Porsche, you now have to spend north of $100,000 to get a GT3 or race car. So they have raised the prices for the same product, just not for the street cars like it use to be.

[Jad]

Well, the 'street' car is much faster, safer, quieter, smoother and more fuel efficient unquestionably, so you are basing this value or cheapness on your percieved quality? Or experience of reliability in track duty?, because the standard measures such as JD Powers puts the newer cars far ahead of the older cars, though they are not keeping up in improvements with other manufacturer in the most recent survey. Porsche had been leading until this year.

[kary]

Well, the 'street' car is much faster, safer, quieter, smoother and more fuel efficient unquestionably, so you are basing this value or cheapness on your percieved quality? Or experience of reliability in track duty?, because the standard measures such as JD Powers puts the newer cars far ahead of the older cars, though they are not keeping up in improvements with other manufacturer in the most recent survey. Porsche had been leading until this year.

Jad, if the street car were not all those things then they would have another problem on their hands, now wouldn't they?

In terms of your statement about my perceived value, why is the GT3 20 to 25 thousands dollars more than the basic street cars? It is all quality of parts baby!

[Bob Gagnon]

One could say Porsche has returned to their past when they marketed the standard "pushrod" 356 and the "twin cam" 356 Carrera with a dry-sump engine.

Too bad that in the 80's Porsche exploited the name "Carrera", once reserved for the FIA racing homologation cars, by applying it to the garden variety 911.

If they hadn't done this, the GT3 would be called a 911 Carrera and the so called 911 Carrera would be a 911.

I just wish Porsche would call a spade a spade...

[Jad]

Well, the 'street' car is much faster, safer, quieter, smoother and more fuel efficient unquestionably, so you are basing this value or cheapness on your percieved quality? Or experience of reliability in track duty?, because the standard measures such as JD Powers puts the newer cars far ahead of the older cars, though they are not keeping up in improvements with other manufacturer in the most recent survey. Porsche had been leading until this year.

Jad, if the street car were not all those things then they would have another problem on their hands, now wouldn't they?

In terms of your statement about my perceived value, why is the GT3 20 to 25 thousands dollars more than the basic street cars? It is all quality of parts baby!

As the thread has been saying, cause they CAN charge that much more - has nothing to do with actual costs....

[kary]

Well, the 'street' car is much faster, safer, quieter, smoother and more fuel efficient unquestionably, so you are basing this value or cheapness on your percieved quality? Or experience of reliability in track duty?, because the standard measures such as JD Powers puts the newer cars far ahead of the older cars, though they are not keeping up in improvements with other manufacturer in the most recent survey. Porsche had been leading until this year.

Jad, if the street car were not all those things then they would have another problem on their hands, now wouldn't they?

In terms of your statement about my perceived value, why is the GT3 20 to 25 thousands dollars more than the basic street cars? It is all quality of parts baby!

As the thread has been saying, cause they CAN charge that much more - has nothing to do with actual costs....

Ok, then, if all you guys who continue to buy these over priced street cars would stop buying them because you want more of a car like a GT3 and bought GT3's only, then Porsche would make them and charge less (possibly), that is of course if your theory is correct because they would only be selling GT3's. ANd if that happened and they kept the price the same, then we would be back to the recent era of high quality cars that have had their prices inflated along with time, which is what Porsche should have been doing all along......The other possibility with this situation is that they lower the price of the GT3 so they can sell more....hhmmm....your right, the masses of people continue to accept less while paying the same and more....it is....ahhh...your fault for buying them.

[Jad]

You seem to think everyone wants a GT3, most don't (this forum is not representative, so no polls please ). I like cars as much as most people, but I DO NOT WANT A GT3. I find the suspension in my street 996 plently firm, couldn't get around with that front splitter, need the back seat, want seat heaters, like the targa top, like the Bose digital stereo and have found no need for a dry sump in my usage.

I would rather get a real cup car for the same price than have the GT3 which tries to be a street car but fails in my personal opinion. I prefer things that are purpose built, not things that try to be two different things. My experience has been they tend to be OK at best at each of things instead of really good at either. The GT3 is a GREAT street car for the track, but only an OK track car compared to real track cars and for me, pretty poor at being a true street car.

I would not have bought a 996 if the GT3 is all that was offered and I really doubt I am in the minority. I think Porsche has done a pretty good job of making an outstanding street car, that can actually be OK at the track.

[kary]

You seem to think everyone wants a GT3, most don't (this forum is not representative, so no polls please ). I like cars as much as most people, but I DO NOT WANT A GT3. I find the suspension in my street 996 plently firm, couldn't get around with that front splitter, need the back seat, want seat heaters, like the targa top, like the Bose digital stereo and have found no need for a dry sump in my usage.

I would rather get a real cup car for the same price than have the GT3 which tries to be a street car but fails in my personal opinion. I prefer things that are purpose built, not things that try to be two different things. My experience has been they tend to be OK at best at each of things instead of really good at either. The GT3 is a GREAT street car for the track, but only an OK track car compared to real track cars and for me, pretty poor at being a true street car.

I would not have bought a 996 if the GT3 is all that was offered and I really doubt I am in the minority. I think Porsche has done a pretty good job of making an outstanding street car, that can actually be OK at the track.

You missed the point Jad, or I did not explain it well enough, either way it is about getting a quality car like the GT3, not necessarily the exact performance or characteristics of a GT3. If folks like yourself are willing to settle for these street cars, then that is how it will be from now on, at least with Porsche. In 20 years, there will likely be a higher precentage of older cars (911's,964's, 993's) still banging around streets and tracks as opposed to the newer cars, but then we have already had that discussion Certinly there will be more newer cars on the road in 20 years (at least I would hope) since they have made a bazillion of these cars....but then that is kinda the problem isn't it......a bazillion lower quality parts cars versus less cars of higher quality parts!

[Chris Huck]

Thanks Jad for pointing out that the price points have only crept up marginally over the past 15 years while so many expensive improvements have been made to the product. ABS, airbags, lightweight metal construction, crash survivability tilt wheel, cupholders, etc... ;^)

I'd like to point out that the cost of producing a GT3 / GT2 is actually quite a bit more than the standard contented cars. Mr Gagnon pointed out the more complicated/expensive transmission and engine. Anyone remember how much Steve D paid for his rear GT3 spoiler? OUCH! Handlaid fiberglass costs way more that stamped metal components. How about the added aerodynamic r&d for a much smaller production run??

Sometimes we just need to change our perspectives too - look at the cost of cars v/s realestate, fuel, milk, bread, corn, airfare etc... over the past ten years. Remember when Porsches were radically more expensive than all the competition? Now we have to explain WHY the Porsche product is better than the japanese/american alternatives for nearly the same price. The price used to be so much higher it was just assumed ;^)

[Bob Gagnon]

Chris-What lightweight metal construction?

Porsche have used some high strength steel alloy here and there to save a bit, but by and large, light alloy has been eliminated from many areas where Porsche has used it before. As I said, forged alloy wheels, magnesium, etc. has been out for some time (I think the last significant magnesium use was the varioram for the 993 RS). They have finally again added alloy for the 997 hood; I am hopeful for more. The only new lightweight technology that has been added is the $8000 PCCB brake option of dubious durability.

I understand the argument why the GT2/3 cost more over a 996, Titanium rods and a real engine/gearbox are not cheap. I just don't understand the price difference between the GT2 and standard Turbo except they know people exist who will pay the price for the GT2- and I don't think the differerence was to finance wind tunnel time.

I know Porsche is in business to make money, but it just drives me nuts that the performance models with less always cost more- it somehow smacks of disrespect for the customer to me.

I think you will have your work cut out for you explaining why people should buy a Porsche as the technology is piled on by other makes. Like I said earlier, take a look at the Mazda ad and Corvette Z06 ad in the latest Car and Driver- aluminum, magnesium, carbon fiber etc in cars costing thousands less. I never thought I would see the day when a 500+ HP Corvette would weigh in the same as a 911.

Now, if they ever put GT3 running gear in the Cayman, count me in!