Sunday's AX Timing.......Good News, Bad News

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Sunday's AX Timing.......Good News, Bad News

Postby Curt Yaws on Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:43 pm

The bad news is we had a long delay in the first timed run set at the 10/22 AX. Lots of folks had bad times or had good runs that didn't get timed correctly. We were getting false start and false finish signals.

The good news is Bill Ibbettson figured out that the low voltage signal cable coming from the start/finish lights was being tricked by a couple of power transformers and a power strip sitting on the table. The computer battery charger and the power supply for the timing light "black box" were too near the signal cable. When Bill figured it out and we relocated the "black box to computer" cable away from the transformers, the false signals stopped and we had no further problems.

Hopefully, this is the gremlin that has caused us many former timing delays and we have captured it.

Thanks and great job, Bill! You're a genius!
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Postby Kim Crosser on Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:06 pm

We all hope that was the problem.

In about 8 months, we will be hosting the 2007 Parade with (I have heard) 500+ Autocross participants in a single day. Imagine encountering these issues during that day...

I suggest that we need to address these "gremlins" permanently ASAP and be prepared for any and all issues next July. Addressing these now and testing in the AX events between now and July will help us avoid any unpleasant surprises then.

Suggestions:
1. Get a second laptop and have it as a backup (anyone remember the coffee incident?). Ideally, set them up with a LAN so that we can copy the info from one to the other in the trailer.
2. Build a second "black box", using shielded components, so it is less sensitive to RFI from power sources, etc.
3. Get shielded cable for all connections and redo the cables so they are RFI-resistant.
4. Have at least two complete sets of cables for the timing and mark all connection ends with cable tags so there is no confusion if we need to swap cables.
5. Make our start/stop boxes less sensitive to sunlight changes. Dick Schroeder and I were discussing this yesterday. What about using those two damaged "candle" cones in the trailer? Cut 4 "barrels", each about 6" long, glue some foam padding on one end of each and attach an elastic strap that would go around the boxes we put over the timing lights and reflectors (maybe with some small hardware - washers, bolts, etc., to hold the strap in place). These would be like camera or telescope light shields, and would virtually eliminate any stray light, especially late in the day when the sun is getting low. (Spray painting them flat black inside also helps cut down reflections.) Even if most of the gremlins were RFI issues, these couldn't hurt.
6. Think about getting some high-quality filtered power bars (i.e., Monster units). I don't know what kind of voltage regulation is built into the generator, but I can picture some spikes and valleys as other equipment (the air compressor) goes on and off, and the generator itself may be producing some noticeable RFI emissions.

I am willing to help with any and all of these.

Comments, suggestions?
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Postby Jad on Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:20 pm

I still think we need to use the brain power of the club to develop a system that works using the transponders to eliminate most of the work of the timing crew.

I believe we have all the equipment we need. Doesn't the club own about 50 transponders? (or we could buy more and give 1 per car? or rent them to those who don't own?) Enough for 2 runs groups to be registered and ready to run at a time. So we just need to develop a system for quickly putting them on cars and recording the numbers so each ax-er doesn't need to buy one and then develop a means to protect the start finish transponder cable from tire abuse.

Seems to me, starting fresh with a strong system and adapting it to our needs is better than trying to make our custom system work, though it is a great system, it also has a lot of complexity, is labor intensive and has been prone to failure at times.

These problems have all been fixed since we switched to transponders at TT. It just seems we should be able to make it work for AX as well.
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Postby Curt Yaws on Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:09 pm

We all hope that was the problem. Bill is ordering new shielded cables that we will try. We have discussed a back-up computer and have a request in to the board to purchase one before year end. We believe the computer is not a problem now, but of course can and has failed in the past. Light entry into the boxes could be a problem, but I'm inclined towards the RFI problem as the culprit. It was like a light switch when we moved the cable. We will continue to test it at the fall events. It would be great for a small group to form to strategize on upgrade versus replacement w/transponders. I'd hate to spend thousands of dollars if all we need is a $20 shielded cable, but we definitely need a dependable system. Any takers to meet with the timing group and discuss ideas? Want to wait and test the cable change in November?
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Postby John Straub on Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:21 pm

I like Kim's and Curt's ideas. I'm not sure if I like the idea of renting transponders to run a autocross and then finding ways to get them on cars. But we do need to find a fix to the problem.
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Postby Kim Crosser on Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:50 pm

Other than the second laptop, what I was suggesting shouldn't be that expensive.

The light box mods are probably under $20 in parts (and cannibalizing the somewhat trashed candle cones in the trailer).

A spare set of cables to the lights seems like good insurance - particularly with the Parade coming - and we would need to get them and test them at an event or two before then. Same with a spare "black box" - this one has served us well for quite a while, but components do eventually fail...

Finally - I wonder if someone could modify the display driver to check/refresh the display when it fails to update? (If it has the ability to be "read" back to see what is currently displayed.) The display seems to hang periodically - if there is a read-back and/or a software reset, maybe we could eliminate some "stuck display" glitches.
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Postby Denise Dente on Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:52 pm

A huge thank you to Bill for troubleshooting. I have suggested to the board that we put this on the agenda at the next meeting. I recommended that we put together a small committee of knowledgable people to thoroughly evaluate our current equiptment and determine what we need in the way of hardware/software so we have a reliable timing system.

Thank you again to Bill, the timing crew, curt and chuck. I know it was stressful.

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Postby edb on Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:50 pm

Curt, The good news is we had a great time. Nice track layout considering the obstacles it had a little bit of everything, perfect for all the new drivers that just finished the PDS.
The east lot is a nice change, we are much closer together and it makes it easier socialize with other members.

Thanks!!
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timing fiasco

Postby Jackie C on Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:09 pm

I was announcing for the 1st time in the trailer when the timing fiasco happened this past Sunday. If you were an impatient corner worker or a tired, hot driver waiting in your car for a rerun (which I have been both on previous occassions), I highly recommend a rotation of volunteering in the trailer. It's incredible anyone in that hot box can concentrate less alone troubleshoot while the radio is blaring with complaints, drivers are running up to and inside complaining they didn't get the correct time and 4 people are trying to talk to each other to figure out how to fix the problem. I am impressed with yet another perspective I hadn't really considered until I was in the middle of it. Really try to put yourself in other's shoes. It can be incredibly humbling.
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Postby John Straub on Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:12 pm

Bill was the "MAN"  :bowdown:
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Postby lrayner on Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:44 pm

I was impressed with the grace shown by those of you solving the problem. The tension was palpable but everyone kept plugging along until things got back on track. And I still feel like I got my $20 worth :D .

As for Kim's suggestions on making light filters for the sensors, I think ABS pipe would be sturdier than the candles, and there may be a fitting available to attach it to the boxes. I'd be happy to take a look at the next AX. I probably even have some bits of pipe.
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Postby Kim Crosser on Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:50 pm

I am willing to assist also (when in town).

PVC is probably more durable. We just need a couple of "barrels" roughly 4"-6" long and about 3" I.D. (large enough to completely surround the light holes in the boxes). They need to easily attach/detach, as the boxes are also the storage for the light equipment. 3-4 Velcro straps would probably suffice to attach them. Spray painting the insides matte black (or flat black) will cut down reflections.

I am more concerned about the whole set of electronics and how many different "single points of failure" we have - any one of which could shut us down.

(Of course, if I wanted to be really paranoid, what would happen if the trailer generator died? Should we consider having a backup generator for the Parade?)

One more suggestion - get a couple of cable mats to protect the timing cables. They are often driven over by several cars (coming for air) and the corner working truck throughout the day, which can't be good for the cables. 10' flexible rubber ducts for cables are only about $18 each - two (or more) of them would provide a couple of marked "cross over" areas while protecting the cables from unnecessary wear and tear.
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Postby bibbetson on Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:24 pm

Thanks everyone. In addition, thanks everyone for helping find a solution, both last weekend and for the future.

Although the use of transponders would be the best solution, thus far I have never heard of any solution to the loop problem. Cars must drive over or under a wire for the transponder system to work. The wire is normally buried in the track. We don't have that luxury at the Q. I'm all ears but please read below first.

The club has hundreds of hours invested into the timing system that we use today. Tom Brown has personally invested many, if not most, of those hours. What we have is a unique, integrated system that because we built it ourselves, have had the ability to customize it to the way our club runs. Buying an off the shelf system will cause the club to customize itself to the new system. Generally not a great position to be in.

I have taken it upon myself to be the point person for the timing system.

We are in the process of acquiring new cables. Shielding and strong jacketing are my two biggest concerns. I plan to fix mount as much of the timing equipment as possible with wire chases for the cables. This will fix the problem that occurred last weekend and one of my biggest concerns with timing - the lack of consistency in its implementation. Tom Brown is building a backup for the black box and we are sourcing a backup computer. We already have backup lights and reflectors. That will provide duplicates of everything except the generator.

The timing system work flawlessly most of the time. We should not lose sight of that. If it can work flawlessly most of the time, it can work flawlessly all of the time; we just need to find the variable that is causing it to go crazy. Last weekend is the first time I have seen an identifiable solution to an identifiable problem with the timing system. My plan is to first remove as many variables from the system as possible. Time will only tell if these changes bring us to a flawless system.

Please remember that any changes in the timing equipment will cause many hours of volunteer labor to implement. It's not as easy as plugging it in.
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Postby bibbetson on Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:33 pm

Kim:

These are good recommendations. I haven't been to the cable manufacturer, but I'm hoping to get much more durable cables. One of my comments to them will be that the cables will be driven over at low speed. We'll see what they say. If cable mats are the answer, then so be it.

A little more brain storming needs to be done on the idea of a light snorkel. It's a great idea, and an extension of the original light boxes, that I think is a great idea. We will want to limit the length of the snorkel to a reasonable length otherwise they will want to tip the boxes over. Also, the use of the snorkel might require us to add adjusting feet to the boxes so we can aim the snorkle. At the PDS, when I setup the lights, the boxes were on a slight grade. In this case if the snorkels where in place, the lights would have never line up to the reflector. The idea where the snorkle is removable would give us some latitude in its installation.

Glad you raised your hand for this part of the trouble shooting. :D

Oh Yeah, I agree that we will want a backup generator for Parade because all this work would be for not if we didn't have power. :shock:
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Postby Curt Yaws on Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:52 pm

Bill:
Thanks from the AX chairs for stepping up and volunteering to be the point guy on the timing equipment. We will support you in every way we can. Anyone who has timing suggestions or concerns should direct them to Bill, either through the forum or directly. Thanks. Curt
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