Racing is one of the only sports......

[lowyder993s]

From my personal observations, most of the guys in the POC , if they wad up their cars they can rebuild it without a blink of the eye. If it breaks its fixed before the next race. If I am out on the track with them who do you thinks going to have a mental advantage?

I know a guy like that

Two of the first things the POC's teaches it's racer candidates is "Show US" and "Build your Reputation"

Show us you want to race and can do what is expected under race conditions. Building your reputation means others are comfortable with you in the corners, know you're conscientious about your racecraft and man up if there's a problem. Most in the POC (either faster or slower) I'm fully comfortable with anywhere on the track. Same goes for PCA as well. Some I'm not, and I dread overtaking or being passed. It's an aquired taste. FWIW...I had my first contact in the enduro...1 I was nerfed in the rear and the other I contacted a guy's rear wheel that was lapping 16 sec slower than me. I'm at fault for that one because the over taking driver has the responsiblity to complete the pass safely. After talking to the race stewards I made sure the guy I nicked was ok and I'd pay for any damage (building your reputation)...fortunately my car touched his wheel and no body damage to either car. I've done far more racing w/ POC and not touched yet...knock on wood.

[kary]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

It is like anything in life, if you focus on the negative aspects of something, you will end up there, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. If one is thinking that way, negatively, they do not belong there. One who is focused on the objective of racing or TT will not focus on the wrong objective. They will infact be alert and prepared for what is happening, thus their odds of negative outcomes will be far less than those that focus on negative outcomes. If you are not in the zone, you should not be there, where ever that is or what ever that is. I skipped the last event because I was not in the zone and I knew that...I would have been focusing on the wrong things, be those negative or other things. More importantly, I do not want to be on a track with those that are focused on the wrong things, you should not be there if you are focused on the wrong things or do not believe in what the activity you are participating.

Kary, I disagree. I think it would be hard to say I am negative about racing or focus on the negatives. I really enjoyed my first race, then in race two, there were two incidents that were VERY close to major contact in the first 1.5 laps. It was at that point I came to the conclusion that the negatives outwayed the positives for me and I just let a car pass when it got close that almost hit me on lap 1.5 instead of trying to race again. I did have a good clean battle at the end of the race which was fun, but the reality had already set in for me. Before the race, my concern was mainly could the car stay cool being pushed that hard for 30 minutes, after the race I was more concerned for my fenders and myself. I almost didn't run the enduro. To be fair, it would have been a much different experience were it not for the first 1.5 laps of race two, as the rest was quite fun.

Jad I see your point however you are making my point. The negatives are changing the way drive in the race. You are going to do soemthing that no one else expects. Being close to another car in racing is what racing is...in the POC clinic the drills are all about proximity and being comfortable with that closeness at speed, at the limit. It is not a negative, it is what racing is all about. Those that do not embrace that should not be there. You have clearly decided it is not for you. Fine, but that does not make it more dangerous for those that do embrace it.

BTW, was talking with other racing buddies and we could not help but recall that we had seen more accidents in auto-x ( I can remember 4 really big ones in PCA auto-x in the past 5 or 6 years). While I have seen a number of fender benders, even a roll over in PCA TT, many fender benders at the CFOS (particularly with the stupid chicane before turn 1) I cannot help but think that we are not being entirely fair when we consider the risks in any venue we choose to run in. How is it that auto-x could have such serious accidents and the TT and Club racing have about the same or slightly more yet not as serious? I think it comes down to various things, but saying CR is far more risky seem strange to me given those other accidents as examples.

[Pete Millikin]

As one who recently dipped a toe into the club racing pool at CFOS, I had a very positive experience. I didn't experience the craziness that Jad experienced at the front of the pack, but was 3 wide on the banking and routinely hung with 2 or 3 cars going into corners without incident. I had a battle with a 944 Turbo for about 8-10 laps that was a really enjoyable. It was definitely closer and more dynamic than a TT.

WTW racing was a huge rush, and the downside is increased risk. Each of us has an individual tolerance to risk and the decision to WTW race or any other risky activity is a personal one that I respect.

[gulf911]

To those that believe that TT is safer than club racing I say this:

It is like anything in life, if you focus on the negative aspects of something, you will end up there, it is a self fulfilling prophecy. If one is thinking that way, negatively, they do not belong there. One who is focused on the objective of racing or TT will not focus on the wrong objective. They will infact be alert and prepared for what is happening, thus their odds of negative outcomes will be far less than those that focus on negative outcomes. If you are not in the zone, you should not be there, where ever that is or what ever that is. I skipped the last event because I was not in the zone and I knew that...I would have been focusing on the wrong things, be those negative or other things. More importantly, I do not want to be on a track with those that are focused on the wrong things, you should not be there if you are focused on the wrong things or do not believe in what the activity you are participating.

Kary, I disagree. I think it would be hard to say I am negative about racing or focus on the negatives. I really enjoyed my first race, then in race two, there were two incidents that were VERY close to major contact in the first 1.5 laps. It was at that point I came to the conclusion that the negatives outwayed the positives for me and I just let a car pass when it got close that almost hit me on lap 1.5 instead of trying to race again. I did have a good clean battle at the end of the race which was fun, but the reality had already set in for me. Before the race, my concern was mainly could the car stay cool being pushed that hard for 30 minutes, after the race I was more concerned for my fenders and myself. I almost didn't run the enduro. To be fair, it would have been a much different experience were it not for the first 1.5 laps of race two, as the rest was quite fun.

Jad I see your point however you are making my point. The negatives are changing the way drive in the race. You are going to do soemthing that no one else expects. Being close to another car in racing is what racing is...in the POC clinic the drills are all about proximity and being comfortable with that closeness at speed, at the limit. It is not a negative, it is what racing is all about. Those that do not embrace that should not be there. You have clearly decided it is not for you. Fine, but that does not make it more dangerous for those that do embrace it.

BTW, was talking with other racing buddies and we could not help but recall that we had seen more accidents in auto-x ( I can remember 4 really big ones in PCA auto-x in the past 5 or 6 years). While I have seen a number of fender benders, even a roll over in PCA TT, many fender benders at the CFOS (particularly with the stupid chicane before turn 1) I cannot help but think that we are not being entirely fair when we consider the risks in any venue we choose to run in. How is it that auto-x could have such serious accidents and the TT and Club racing have about the same or slightly more yet not as serious? I think it comes down to various things, but saying CR is far more risky seem strange to me given those other accidents as examples.

Kary,
I think you are equating solo accidents (read AX) vs getting hit by another car, which you can't. There is a huge difference between making a mistake and hitting a cone or krail vs making a mistake and getting t-boned at 90mph or faster. You have control at an AX, its your mistake....at a Club Race, not so much... There is risk at both but if you are trying to say that your risk is the same or worse at an AX or TT as a Club Race I'd say your logic needs attending to....

[MikeD]

Interesting thread. I think Kary and the others have summed it up just about right: To each his/her own. If CR seems too dangerous for you, please stay home. I certainly do not want to try overtaking someone who is more concerned about saving their fenders than being consistent and predictable.

To Dan C. I say "Bull honkery!" PCA and POC CR is NOT about who has more cajones to go deeper, later, and take more risks. In fact I would argue the exact opposite. TT is all about cajones, "What line can I take into T1 and T2 to keep my foot in the gas?" "How late can I go into T9 and still keep the car balanced." Etc, etc... Anyone who has been TTing for more than a year knows the techniques. After that it's all about how big are you cajones, to go faster, brake later, carry more speed, and on, and on.

However, on the less ballsy, more technical side is CR. When I'm racing into T1 I don't necessarily find the "fast" line. I look ahead and identify who I am going to pass (dang gum slow-in-the-turns-911's ) and figure out where I need to start my turn in order to be where I need to be when I overtake that pokey 911. Same for T9, and all the others. Who am I going to be overtaking there and where can I get the car in order to make the pass. It is my opinion that Club Racing takes more thought, technical ability, and more awareness than Time Trialing by a very large margin.

Heck the only time I had any sort of close call was with a X car (a very experienced TTer, but brand spanking new CRer) who was obviously still thinking he was Time Trialing and not as aware as he should have been. In fact I notice the lack of awareness far more in TT's than in CR's. Which is expected in the lower groups, but I see it quite a bit in the Red group as well. And lack of awareness is what causes more incidents than large cajones at any event!

But as I said earlier, if you think CR is more dangerous and just all about your cajones. Then by all means keep the car in the paddock and enjoy the view.

When you drive your car competitively you and your car are at risk. We've seen it happen in AX, TT, and CR.

Now, in regards to the original message. I do not agree at all. If you have the talent, drive, and motivation you can get into the top levels of Motorsports. If that Milk Truck driver really wanted to race, he could! There is NO sport or profession in the world where a Milk Truck driver could seriously expect to have someone stop him on his route and say "Hey, you handle this truck really well, why don't you come drive my Porsche Spyder RS at the next ALMS race?"

In fact I would maintain that it's probably easier for someone with just talent to get into a good career in racing than any other professional sports. There are so many paths to get from Hobby to Amateur to Semi-Pro to Pro paths in racing it's ridiculous. However, in Football, Baseball, Golf, Tennis, Hockey, yadda, yadda, yadda, there is usually only one path: High School to College to Semi-Pro to Pro.

I guess would have to say "Bull Honkery!" to that as well.

[kary]

It is kinda like if you have to ask how much the car is you probably can't afford it. Since many are concerned about the risks, then they should not be there, nor should they cast opinions based upon limited or no experience. Perhaps it is others here that need attendance to their logic

[gulf911]

But as I said earlier, if you think CR is more dangerous and just all about your cajones. Then by all means keep the car in the paddock and enjoy the view.

When you drive your car competitively you and your car are at risk. We've seen it happen in AX, TT, and CR.

Well, like the Gieco caveman says.....

Yes, I'd like to respond.... What!?!?!?

Agreed TTing is definately not CR...but the only thing keeping me from it in this point in time is the financial aspect of it, not the risk jack...I don't have the risk aspect in the forefront, but I don't bury my head in the sand either, so save your stay out of our pool if you think its dangerous ,and if you don't CR you don't have an opinion bs for someone else.

And Kary, I expected as much from you.

[MikeD]

Agreed TTing is definately not CR...but the only thing keeping me from it in this point in time is the financial aspect of it, not the risk jack...I don't have the risk aspect in the forefront, but I don't bury my head in the sand either, so save your stay out of our pool if you think its dangerous ,and if you don't CR you don't have an opinion bs for someone else.

Ummmm.... yeah, I guess you could have put it that way. However, I wasn't try to say "stay out of our pool if you don't like it." I was merely agreeing with Kary and Pete: If your mind is not in the game, (i.e. you don't really want to be there) then you shouldn't CR. Dan knows he doesn't want to CR, and so he wont. No peer pressure here, he, and you and the others are just as "cool" (or not) in my book if you do CR as if you don't. But if you want to, come on in, the water is fine, really it is, honest!

And... I don't think I have my head buried in the sand. I am aware that CR is more risky. But Dan C. was trying to convince us that CR was all about the size of your cajones, and TT was more a thinking mans game. I think I made it pretty clear that I disagree with that assessment.

[gulf911]

Ummmm.... yeah, I guess you could have put it that way. However, I wasn't try to say "stay out of our pool if you don't like it." I was merely agreeing with Kary and Pete: If your mind is not in the game, (i.e. you don't really want to be there) then you shouldn't CR. Dan knows he doesn't want to CR, and so he wont. No peer pressure here, he, and you and the others are just as "cool" (or not) in my book if you do CR as if you don't. But if you want to, come on in, the water is fine, really it is, honest!

And... I don't think I have my head buried in the sand. I am aware that CR is more risky. But Dan C. was trying to convince us that CR was all about the size of your cajones, and TT was more a thinking mans game. I think I made it pretty clear that I disagree with that assessment.

Mike,
I may need less caffein... Agreed, its not all about the cajones , and the technical aspects of deciding how to take a corner to overtake a car is not the same as figuring the best line while out there solo. This is a different mindset. It was probably Kary's snobbish 'if you can't afford it' remark that didn't set right. And at least you admit and realize there is 'additional' risk at that level. If things change in the near future I would love to dip my foot in as well.

[Jad]

First, while this was my first club race, I have more racing laps in gokarts than most of you have in Porsches so I am not exactly a novice first time racer. I know how to pass, set people up, fight for a corner, etc. Gokart racing is much more competitive than PCA or POC and you do have to fight for corners in real racing fashion. Yes, this involves some bumping and pushing as it is real racing. Club racing is not real racing, I am sure that will offend some, but it is not meant to. Club racing is suppose to be a fun HOBBY. The NASCAR joke, rubbin is racin, is true. Crashing into others is not racing, but fighting and pushing each other into and through corners is racing.

As Lowyder said, there are people to trust and run door to door with and others you don't. In TT you just slow down and find your friends, in a cr, battling for the lead or whatever position, you have to race whoever is next to you, you don't chose. If they are going to go too deep into a corner, you MUST take the inside line to avoid the accident. Thats OK, but what if you don't know their style in advance?, what if the pass is so ill advised that you didn't expect them to try it in the first place? Club racing is not horrible, but it is much more risky than TT or AX and if you are arguing this point, you are nuts. I see the fontana club race versus over a dozen AX and TT per year and there are way more accidents in that one cr than all the ax and tt combined. I even see accident in racing on TV and they are professional I would have no issue, and often do, AX in 3 point belts. I would not even consider cr in a car with 3 points, would you Kary?

The 13/13 rule is a good theory, but if someone really wants a corner, and they just go for it, you MUST get out of their way and give it to them or you are done for the race and have car damage, even if it was your corner.

And Kary, there is a big difference between being able to afford something and being willing to afford something. I certainly can afford to run Hoosiers or slicks at every event, but I am not willing to. Martin, Bill, and I, have just as much fun racing against each other on Toyos and having several thousand left in the bank. Each person has their own cost vs enjoyment level and it has very little to do with how much they can afford.

Back to Tim's original post, I believe if you are truly a Michael Schumacher, and willing to give up on family, mortgage your house and do whatever it will take, you probably can make it(like Scott Speed or Hamilton, though Speed may not actually have the needed talent) on a limited budget. However, if you are just really good, and not absolutely spectacular, you had better have boat loads of money. The back half of most racing grids is filled with money, not the best drivers. Pure talent does have a much better chance in sports that have the college (I use the term loosely as no education is being provided in many cases) route to the professional ranks. Sports like tennis and golf I feel need money just like racing for coaches, equipment, and time.

[Dan Chambers]

To Dan C. I say "Bull honkery!" PCA and POC CR is NOT about who has more cajones to go deeper, later, and take more risks. In fact I would argue the exact opposite. TT is all about cajones, "What line can I take into T1 and T2 to keep my foot in the gas?" "How late can I go into T9 and still keep the car balanced." Etc, etc... Anyone who has been TTing for more than a year knows the techniques. After that it's all about how big are you cajones, to go faster, brake later, carry more speed, and on, and on.

Bull Honkery? Gee Mike, express your fellings, will ya? Tell me how you really feel.

I'll agree with you, TT's definitly require checking the Huevos in some parts of a track. Yep. True. However ( ... and I'm at a distinct disadvantage not W2W racing myself .... ) I think having someone else checking my Huevos for me with agressive moves on a track at the limit of traction is something I'll pass on. (At this point only Monica has the inside track to my Huevos. ) You can't tell me there aren't guys driving W2W that don't think: "I'll dive in on this guy and see if he 'blinks'." I've driven with Dente at DE's and heard him say that when chasing down Martin R. So, having someone seeing if "I'll blink" is less appealing to me than a car in perfect condition at the end of the day and sitting with a co-competitor comparing times. But that's just me.

I'll agree with Kary and Mike: to each his/her own.

I'm not knocking W2W. However, I know what I'm looking at when I watch it. I know what looks fun and what looks dangerous. If you're tryinig to convince me that CR and W2W is safer than TT's or AX's ... as Kary implies...., you'd have more luck teaching a pig to sing. I have eyes and ears. Give me some credit, guys.

See you at the next AX?

[MikeD]

Bull Honkery? Gee Mike, express your fellings, will ya? Tell me how you really feel.

Man, every body is so sensitive. Ever seen those lame Travelocity commercials? I just thought the way that stupid little Traveling Gnome says "Bull Honkery!" was sort of comical.... guess I was the only one.



I have a blast Club Racing. I don't recall anyone pushing me to do something I might not want to do. There was a black 993 that kept blocking me, so I put my nose in a little deeper to see if he would open the door. But I never took it to the point where I couldn't back out and let him take the corner.

And then of course, I went waaaay deep into T3 once while racing with Dave Q., but I have a good excuse. I had no brakes!

Anyway, if you're not having fun and are stressed out, for whatever reason, then it's not worth it. It is, after all a Hobby!

[kary]

And Kary, there is a big difference between being able to afford something and being willing to afford something. I certainly can afford to run Hoosiers or slicks at every event, but I am not willing to. Martin, Bill, and I, have just as much fun racing against each other on Toyos and having several thousand left in the bank. Each person has their own cost vs enjoyment level and it has very little to do with how much they can afford.

Jad, agreed, eveyone has their price...but it is not me that brought up money...those of you who said you were not willing to risk (yourself or your car) brought up money as a reason to not CR. I merely pointed out that CR'ing focus is not about money but rather focus on wheel to wheel driving, door to door, close proximity racing, awareness of cars around you. If you do not like that then do not do it, whining about it here is not productive for anyone. Why do you do karting W2W? because the cost is less, the risk is much lower? Of course it is. The experience is much different than sportcar W2W too...they really are not comparable, each has something entirely different.

I never said anything about your selection of tires, until you whined about lap times and slicks in previous threads. I think it is important that if you open the line of questioning about tires, money or anything else you should be able to take back comments without complaining. I guess it does not work that way here.

All:
For the record...W2W has nothing to do with money, it has to do with awareness and confidence to drive in situations that are off the line, awkward even at times, closeness to other cars, being comfortable with that. Yes there is risk...each level from auto-x to DE, to TT to CR to endurance racing there are added risks. If you are not prepared to take on those risks, do not do it, but do not crap on it because you do not like it or are not prepared to handle it. After all, there are far more CR's than time trialers in PCA and POC, so there must be something there...or are all these folks crazy?


Take it in fun guys, quit making everything so serious...everyone has a opinion, let's try an make this board useful rather than speculation.

Here come the flames.....

[Dan Chambers]

All:
For the record...W2W has nothing to do with money ....

Yes .... and the world is flat.

Sorry, Kary ... but, really!

[Gary Burch]

I guess it comes down to, "Real men W2W and those that don't are Punks." I for one am perfectly happy doing some ax's an occasional TT and being very un-punkish.

If you need the action of CR, for whatever reason, have fun. It should all be fun.