Possible Zone 8 DE rule changes?

[kurquhart]

Hi Kris,
The convertible top must raise and lower over the extender, which limits any increase in height - as BK notes, it only increases height above the existing roll bars by 1-3/4 inches.
All DE rules require convertibles/cabs to run with the top up/closed. Otherwise, BK could just make a taller extender.
Kim

Not true: you may run with the top down if you wear arm restraints.

XIV. O. For time trials and DE, sunroofs, convertible tops, or removable tops
(Targa tops, removable sunroofs for 924, 944, 968 vehicles) must be in
place, fully fastened and closed. If the sunroof, convertible or removable
top is not present, or cannot close over the roll bar or roll cage, the use of
arm restraints shall be mandatory in lieu of closing the top.

[/b]

[Greg Phillips]

Not sure how easy it is to put on and take off the BK roll bar extensions, but unless it is pretty easy I am not sure you would want to leave your top down all the time just to run a DE or time trial.

For my 2 cents, I would agreee with Kim that mounting a fire extiguisher for a parking lot event is not necessary. The risk of the extinguisher flying around from an accidental release may be greater than the benfit of the easy access in case of a fire.

As regards safety equipment, it is always about the relative risks against the cost and convenience. Are 5 point harnesses safer than stock safety belts? Maybe, if the car has a roll bar, but not necessarily. If safety was paramount, why are we running soft thin tires that puncture easily. We should all be on run-flat tires, much safer.

I personally think that a stock Boxster (or later cabriolet with popup rollhoops) is a reasonably safe alternative at a QDE. These cars were designed to be passing cars on the autobahn at triple digit speeds without harnesses and extensions.
I have driven my Honda S2000 at Streets of Willow with stock belts and no additional rollover protection.
or as Billy Joel song goes:
"You told me not to drive
But I made it home alive
So you said that only proves that I'm insane

You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for"


Greg

[hmeeder]

Good on you, Kris!

Excellent reading of the rules and looking at all the possibilities.

Kim wrote:

Herb - relative to the Boxster "platform", I mentioned that specifically because it is already singled out in the Zone 8 DE/TT rules. If there are other Porsche cabs which need and can use roll bar extenders, then the rule should include those as well.

Sure, the Boxster is mentioned specifically. By specifying a roll bar extension such as the Brey-Krause the rules provide for a way for taller drivers to meet the minimum roll over safety requirements in a Boxster.

You asked for feedback about your proposed rules change. In it you specify that Boxsters be exempted from needing to use the extenders. As I read it, you are really asking that Boxsters be exempted from the minimum safety requirements at a Parking Lot DE. Essentially it is a proposed deletion of the broomstick rule, since that is the only reason for the Brey-Krause extender in the first place. I feel that this proposed deletion of the broomstick rule needs to extend to all open cars to be enforceable under those circumstances. Just a suggestion for re-wording.

[Kim Crosser]

Herb, I think you mis-read my post on the BK and Boxsters. My proposed Zone 8 rule change was that a Boxster WITH a BK would be allowed even if it didn't meet the "broomstick" rule. I.e., if you have added the extender, but still don't quite clear the bar, it is ok to run. At no time did I propose that Boxsters without BKs be exempted from any rules.

However, it is interesting that the PCA National Standards, and some other PCA Regions do not require Boxsters (or other recent model cabs) to use extenders for DE events.

I do find it a little frustrating (and ironic) that under our current rules, even if I spent $750-$1000 adding a BK and a fire extinguisher, I wouldn't meet our rules to run in a QDE, while two days ago I was driving and instructing in a DE/AX at Streets of Willow in my stock Boxster with no modifications - perfectly legitimate under PCA National Standards. I guess for now I will just run DEs with other Regions.

I will ask my other question again -

Are our QDE events really Driver Education (i.e., teaching) events, or are they being used as TT tune-up days? How many real students attend our DEs versus single-driver cars? Is that what DE events are supposed to be?

At SOW on Monday, there were 68 cars, including a lot of students - many at their first DE/first big track event, and everyone drove safely and sanely with no incidents. The students (and instructors) got a chance to spend 3 20-minute continuous lapping sessions, which really accelerated learning the racing line and car handling in different situations.

[RickK]

Herb, I think you mis-read my post on the BK and Boxsters. My proposed Zone 8 rule change was that a Boxster WITH a BK would be allowed even if it didn't meet the "broomstick" rule. I.e., if you have added the extender, but still don't quite clear the bar, it is ok to run. At no time did I propose that Boxsters without BKs be exempted from any rules.

What is the difference? If you do not meet the broomstick rule you do not meet the broomstick rule and you are at the same risk whether you fail to meet the rule with the BK extender or without the extender. If you are proposing that the broomstick rule is unnecessary then propose that, but it should then be unnecessary for all cabs because the risk/issue is going to be the same for them.

BTW, I would oppose the rule amendment, back when I had my cab I put in a rollbar to attend DEs and would not have felt safe if I didn't. As an instructor I would be very hesitant (read: would not do it) to get in a car for DEs without proper rollover protection, but maybe that is just me - heck I want a rollbar in a coupe as well, to go with my 5-points for DE.

[ttweed]

I do find it a little frustrating (and ironic) that under our current rules, even if I spent $750-$1000 adding a BK and a fire extinguisher, I wouldn't meet our rules to run in a QDE, while two days ago I was driving and instructing in a DE/AX at Streets of Willow in my stock Boxster with no modifications.

Why do we need a Zone 8 rule change to do this, then, Kim? GPX has been doing it for years with their "Day Away From Work" autox, and now OCR has jumped on the bandwagon. They are both holding events now at SOW that are run under autox safety standards (no roll bars, no fire suits, no extinguishers, no harnesses and no broomstick rule) and they are doing continuous lapping in practice sessions, with controlled passing (same as our DEs at the Q) on a big track. Obviously, there is a way for us to do this if we wanted to, as a regional event, without proposing any rule changes or having them approved by the Zone.

It seems to me that we just have to decide, as a region, that this is something worthwhile, that we really want to do, and then find out how the other regions have skirted the Zone rules with their events. I'm not sure I'm hearing that, though, from most of the people responding here, but the target market (newbies) is probably not participating in this discussion.

TT

[993Panzer]

I will ask my other question again -

Are our QDE events really Driver Education (i.e., teaching) events, or are they being used as TT tune-up days? How many real students attend our DEs versus single-driver cars? Is that what DE events are supposed to be?

At SOW on Monday, there were 68 cars, including a lot of students - many at their first DE/first big track event, and everyone drove safely and sanely with no incidents. The students (and instructors) got a chance to spend 3 20-minute continuous lapping sessions, which really accelerated learning the racing line and car handling in different situations.

Kim,

I know that we are short on instructors for Saturdays QDE. So I would say that this points to this event as being a "Teaching" DE. I also know we've had to turn some people away for not meeting the minimal requirements to run in the DE. The interest is there and I'm sure by the next QDE many of those that didn't meet the requirements will. That would lead me to believe that our QDE events are truely teaching events and a stepping stone to Time Trials.

[RETII]

One newbie checking in with my .02. Your concept of trying to see how others get around a rule isn't something I would advise anyone to do. Change a rule,
maybe, but to ignore or circumvent a rule is probably not a good idea. I seriously doubt that a 30 dollar extinguisher is going to break anyone. I can't speak to the rollbar issue. I 'm getting the feeling that the fire issue is way down the list and might be being used to ease the rollbar relaxation issue, maybe not. OSHA not withstanding has being too safe ever been a bad thing?

[Kim Crosser]

Hi Tom,
Our Board has stated that for SDR DE events we will abide exactly by the Zone 8 rules - no waivers or exceptions. Therefore, unless the Zone 8 rules are modified, SDR will not run events like they do in GPX and OCR.
Also, GPX and OCR are in compliance with the PCA National Standards for DE in those events, just not in compliance with the Zone 8 Competition Rules for DE, although they are in compliance for the AX points event held at the end of the day.

Having experienced how much faster students (and I) learn and improve when you can run 12-14 continuous laps and immediately see and feel the differences in lines and speeds, it seems like there should be a way for more of us to participate in *safe* Drivers Education events, without requiring car modifications. IMHO - one day of DE, with 3 20-minute continuous run sessions, is worth a year+ of AX events as a learning experience.

If the DEs that are currently run in SDR are "too dangerous" for unmodified street Porsches, then are they really DEs, or are they just play time for adrenaline junkies? (ooh - am I going to get flames for that )


Dave,
Thanks for the answer on the teaching part - typing my response to Tom's question caused me to post after you responded. It is good to know that there is plenty of teaching going on.

[Kim Crosser]

I 'm getting the feeling that the fire issue is way down the list and might be being used to ease the rollbar relaxation issue, maybe not.

Nope - no hidden agenda here. There was discussion at the last Board meeting about the roll bar and then others brought up the fire extinguisher. I talked with Tom Brown after the meeting and volunteered to put something up for comments and so I included both in the post. I don't have a strong feeling about the extinguisher one way or the other.
FYI - I have ridden as an instructor in one car where the extinguisher mount was firmly fixed, but where the passenger (instructor) could inadvertently release the extinguisher from the mount by bumping it with his/her leg. While the mount was "legal", it sure didn't seem "safe" to me - the prospect of having a 5-10 pound extinguisher loose in the car in a turn or spin made me a bit nervous.

[ttweed]

Our Board has stated that for SDR DE events we will abide exactly by the Zone 8 rules - no waivers or exceptions.

I think that says it all, then, about whether we as a region think it is a worthwhile idea or have the "will" to do this. Regardless of what support you may drum up at the grassroots level, I seriously doubt you are going to be able to influence all the other regions in the Zone to change the rules to suit your purpose, then, if our own region does not support the idea. How many other regions in the Zone hold DEs in parking lots? None, that I am aware of. This would be a rule specifically for our region, then, and if our region isn't pushing it, why would it get changed?

We previously held DEs under a separate set of rules for SDR only, so there is no reason it could not be done again.

...there should be a way for more of us to participate in *safe* Drivers Education events, without requiring car modifications.

Oh, there are plenty of ways for anyone to do this, just not with this club. There are literally hundreds of groups offering such opportunities at every track across the nation. Some even allow unrestricted passing anywhere on the track in the fast/instructor groups, with no more safety equipment than a helmet. The question is, still, do we want to go there?

TT

[gulf911]

While the mount was "legal", it sure didn't seem "safe" to me - the prospect of having a 5-10 pound extinguisher loose in the car in a turn or spin made me a bit nervous.

That made you nervous? But the idea of you holding up a 3000lb car with your head doesn't??

A few years ago I was at a QDE and on the long straight back up the hill, which curved slightly to the right, my car let go (hoosiers), I was not prepared for how far the car slid off the track and if the tire would have blown (very possible) the wheel would dig in and could flip the car. Is it that expensive to comply with the broomstick rule? Or is it the modification aspect? Can this not be reversed?

[Curt]

But the idea of you holding up a 3000lb car with your head doesn't??

A few years back Dan rolled his convertible and fortunately his full head of hair cushioned the impact but damn if that 300' skid on his head didn't take off all the hair from the top of his head. Look at him now. I suggest we warn all convertible owners of this scary possibility.

I tend to want to err on the side of safety. Like Mike D and others have echoed in this thread. When we have a warm weather event and the fire suit requirement gets relaxed, I always wear my fire suit anyway. My degree is not in fire science, but I'm pretty sure that if me and my car catch on fire at an outside temp of 60 degrees or 90 degrees it's gonna hurt pretty bad either way.

[hmeeder]

Kim wrote

...two days ago I was driving and instructing in a DE/AX at Streets of Willow in my stock Boxster with no modifications - perfectly legitimate under PCA National Standards. I guess for now I will just run DEs with other Regions.

but perhaps not with GPX at their Next Day Away from Work AX.

To add another dimension to this discussion, apparently some of the instructors and chairs at that Monday event had problems with the relaxed DE rules, specifically regarding rollover protection. Here's an excerpt from an email I received from Skip Carter after they debriefed the event;

"Issue of open cars with no rollover protection
Tops required to be up on all convertibles with tops
Roll over protection is required on all open cars
i. Stock factory rollover protection covers this requirement

ii. Will speak with Hauptmans soon about this rule change

iii. Add these two items to GPX DE rules"

While the BK extender is not required by them the way this is written, it is obvious that rollover protection is an issue with them as well. You can see that they do not feel that the minimum AX rules are sufficient for that event. And yes, it does occur to me that this actually supports Kim's position that a stock Boxster's protection is adequate.

My student had a bone stock 993 Cabrio at that event and cranking nearly 130mph down that front straight with stock belts, a cloth top and hoping that those pop-up bars are working the way that they are intended did make me a bit nervous. Fortunately, my student was not a complete novice and was fast but competent and careful. I did have second thoughts about instructing until he proved himself to me. Of course, that doesn't take into account mistakes made by the other drivers and other events beyond his control.

Kim- I applaud you for defending you position so gamely and in a calm and gentlemanly manner. You've been taking a beating from many, yet haven't let that bait you into returning fire in kind. Kudos.

[ttweed]

Your concept of trying to see how others get around a rule isn't something I would advise anyone to do.

Ralph-

You're quite correct about that, sir, as a general "life rule"--I wrote that "tongue in cheek", so to speak. I should have used the "sarcastic" smilie.

My point was that there is no need to change the rules, it is already being done by other regions in the zone, within the existing rules. If we wanted to, all we would have to do is call it a "special" autocross, and set up the timing lights for the last session and finish up with the usual single lap format, with separation between the cars.

BTW, I would add SAR to the list of regions doing this as well, as I have run continuous laps in practice sessions with them at their Zone 8 autox, held on a small roadcourse at Pinal Air Park, outside of Tuscon, with passing accomplished in a single, specified section of the track. They do, however, slow down maximum possible speeds by setting several chicanes and slaloms around the track with cones.

TT