Suggestion for a new teaching mantra

[Dan Chambers]

However, since unlearning this technique, I've always wondered why it's taught by SDR/PCA.

John:

The PDS is an intro-level course in basic performance driving with a focus on safety and control. The PDS is not intended for beginners to go directly to the big tracks. It has it's foundation in AX's where large steering inputs are needed, as Vince eluded to earlier. What you speak of is relavent to big tracks with very high speeds, and vehicles set up for much quicker responses than the average PDS student's car that is basically street/show-room set up on higher-mileage compound tires.

It is the belief of many drivers and Instructrors in the San Diego Region and Zone 8 of PCA that your hands should never leave the wheel. Hand-over-hand steering techniques require one hand to leave the wheel and pass over the other. Shuffle steering allows the driver to stay in constant, albeit light, contact with the wheel, with both hands, at all times. Although some newer driver will "micro-shuffle" a little, that can be corrected. If there are no large steering inputs required, many of my previous instructors told me to leave my hands at 9-and-3 and simply take them to 6-and-12 o'clock for high-speed/small steering inputs (i.e. DE's and TT's).

As to Kim's initial question, I have a couple of mantra's I give to students:

1) Be smoooooooth: I say "HANDS!" when someone is choppy with the wheel and "SMOOTH GAS" or "SMOOTH BRAKES" when drivers stab at the pedals.
2) Look ahead, WAY ahead, and plan for the next section "LOOK AHEAD"
3) Use the whole track - I always say "Cone-to-cone" to emphasize using the whole track; going from the outside "cone" at the turn in to the apex "cone" at the apex, and the track out "cone" after the apex. I find myself repeating"CONE-TO-CONE!" alot.

I usually focus on these 3 items in this order. These are just my tools. Others have better ones, I'm sure.

[LUCKY DAVE]

How cool is it that you can talk to your student while instructing in a car? I've never done it, but it seems ideal.
I taught lots of new racer schools (like a hundred or so, mostly on the big track at Willow) and I can't tell you how many times I watched the students pay rapt attention in the class room, and then forget everything once the adrenalin kicks in out on the track.
Frustrating to say the least.
Often the best results came from having the newbies just follow the instructors around. They seemed to retain the most that way.

[Kim Crosser]

Hi Dan,
I too use the "smooth", "look ahead", and "use the whole track" mantras. (I also like Tom's "stay out".)

By the way, on the "look ahead", I try to explain my approach to the students as "the cones mark where you CANNOT go, but you should look ahead and visualize the path you want your car to take, then ignore the cones - There are no cones, the path is everything, grasshopper!".

My thought on the "brake early, turn late" was just to crystallize the "in slow, out fast" concept with some actual "instructions". I think everyone would agree with the "turn late" part, but Tom's point about late vs. early models (ABS vs. non-ABS) is quite valid - the "brake early" part just doesn't apply to everyone.

Perry's earlier posts asking about "in slow, out fast" had been rattling around my brain for a while (lots of room there) and with the PDS and AXs (finally!) coming up, I just woke up one morning with what seemed like a concise phrase that captured a couple of key elements.

Ah, well, back to the drawing board...

[LUCKY DAVE]

Do any of you (instructors) teach the concept of "corner entry speed adjustment" instead of hitting "braking markers"?
In other words, concentrating on hitting "landmarks", self selected locations on the track where you want to be going a certain speed and direction instead of just braking at the same location every lap.
Since your straightaway speed is a little bit different every lap because you didn't get the same drive off the last corner, (slid too much, early apexed, simply screwed up, having a passing war with another driver, adjusting the radio station, whatever), the location where you start to adjust corner entry speed for the next corner isn't the same every lap either. The object is to enter the next conrner at the proper speed/direction/attitude/location regardless of the mistake you just made in the last corner...

The goal is learning the corner working backwards from the "exit goal" you choose to the entry, adapting to changing conditions.

[kary]

I would suggest the technique be changed from what is taught today. For some cars in an auto-x it is difficult to negotiate a corner that tight without shuffle steering. The majority of auto-x turns are not that tight however, so using the fixed hand approach at 9 and 3 is optimal, even in the auto-x. I think it is reasonable to teach people the 9 and 3 apporach and augment it with the shuffle steering technique when the corner requires. This is the way I drive an auto-x if I drive them.

As a side note I also notice in my in car video of track driving that I do modified versions of shuffle steering particularly when I have to shift in awkward sitiuations and need arm strength to maintain the turn I am in while shifting. Also when I do have oversteer and need to catch rapidly I have been known to allow the wheel to slide through my hands with resistance, knowing full well the consequences. I have some good video of that that I posted for Buttonwillow coming out of star mazada late in the race. For those that are intersted see my recent video post.

[Kim Crosser]

Lucky Dave - Yes, we do explain that they need to adjust their braking points as their speeds (and skills) change.

Remember that most of our AX students are fairly new to this - lots of first-timers - so we also have to keep from overloading them with too many things to think about. That is one of the valuable things about short/simple mantras - new students can remember a short, pithy phrase a lot easier than remembering all the factors that apply.

Once they have:
a. Quit turning too early/driving down the middle
b. Lost some of their fear of speed
c. Gotten somewhat consistent on the line
d. Learned to look beyond their front bumpers
e. Learned to modulate - not punch - the accelerator
f. Learned to modulate - not punch - the brakes
g. Learned that their car can handle more way more than they thought
h. Learned what throttle steering means and feels like
i. etc., etc...

... then we can work on tuning their corner approaches. In addition to adjusting the braking points, there is double-apexing, heel-and-toe shifting, left-foot/trail braking, using momentum and power-induced understeer to slide past the apex marker, etc., but none of those techniques are appropriate for most new drivers until they have some of the basics down.

"Lucky Dave" - Have you thought about becoming an instructor with SDR? We can always use more people who know how to drive and can teach that effectively.

p.s. Re shuffle steering - I think Kary's comments are good, and I thought that was what we were teaching - i.e., keep hands at 3/9 and only shuffle steer when you need to turn the wheel more than 90 degrees. But - I try to teach students to prepare for those tighter turns and preset the "pull down" hand before they get there. A lot of that becomes easier when they learn to look ahead and plan their turn entry/exits before they get there...

[LUCKY DAVE]

Kim, I can't be a PCA instructor, according to club rules, I don't have enough "experience". Maybe next year.
Beyond that, my (retired semi-professional motorcycle road racer) point of view on teaching big track techniques right from the start (learn right in the first place, don't try to unlearn later) is at odds with club dogma.
I'm not about to try to change a well proven and well thought out teaching formula.
I realize 95% of AX learners won't ever set a wheel in a real race, but.....well....for me AX's would be perfect.....if only there were other cars to savagely block pass

[Dan Chambers]

.....well....for me AX's would be perfect.....if only there were other cars to savagely block pass

Well ... in AX's you race against the clock. If you can figure out a way to "block" the clock, I'm all ears. Yes, I agree: you should stick to big tracks if one of your techniques for winning involve blocking. Racing two wheels in triple digits has go to be once heck of a high.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Winning always involves blocking, and passing, and superior horsepower, and better equipment, and the right tire compound choice, and intimidation, and the right look from your girlfriend just before you set out, and a hundred other things.
And most important....NOT CRASHING! To finish first..... you have to first finish.

[kary]

p.s. Re shuffle steering - I think Kary's comments are good, and I thought that was what we were teaching - i.e., keep hands at 3/9 and only shuffle steer when you need to turn the wheel more than 90 degrees. But - I try to teach students to prepare for those tighter turns and preset the "pull down" hand before they get there. A lot of that becomes easier when they learn to look ahead and plan their turn entry/exits before they get there...

One of the biggest complaints I have heard in POC is people that shuffle steer. These people are from PCA not POC because POC short track series does not tech shuffle steering. I feel confident in saying that in general PCA SDR teaches given the drivers I have seen lately. Heck I was taught that way back in 1997. It is hard to break but once you break it you will never go back to shuffle steering.

Also, I recall in a witness seeing Dan Chambers sitting on a chair in the middle of the parkin glot with a steering wheel demonstrating shuffle steering (sorry Dan, but it looked pretty funny!), but this in and of itself shows we clearly believe this is too important.....

[Jad]

Before this gets out of hand and confuses new students, shuffle steering is an accepted high performance and racing technique used by many professional drivers, it is NOT a bad habit used only for introductory driving schools. Just because POC doesn't like it, doesn't mean you should not try it and see if it works for you.

Obviously, if you are in a Formula 1 car or kart with lock to lock of about 270 degress, you do not use this technique, however, any street based car allows this technique to be properly used to improve control, smoothness and also to greatly reduce fatigue. Another benefit is if the airbags ever go off, the shuffle steering position is safe, the arms crossed method will brake both arms and possibly more.

Everyone drives differently and likes different techniques. PCA-SDR teaches one very good widely accepted option of shuffle steer, and we just suggest students try it, it is NOT required for completion of the class.

Do your own research as Paul and Vince and Dan an countless others have, don't just listen to a few posts or one persons opinion on things.

[kary]

Before this gets out of hand and confuses new students, shuffle steering is an accepted high performance and racing technique used by many professional drivers, it is NOT a bad habit used only for introductory driving schools. Just because POC doesn't like it, doesn't mean you should not try it and see if it works for you.

Obviously, if you are in a Formula 1 car or kart with lock to lock of about 270 degress, you do not use this technique, however, any street based car allows this technique to be properly used to improve control, smoothness and also to greatly reduce fatigue. Another benefit is if the airbags ever go off, the shuffle steering position is safe, the arms crossed method will brake both arms and possibly more.

Everyone drives differently and likes different techniques. PCA-SDR teaches one very good widely accepted option of shuffle steer, and we just suggest students try it, it is NOT required for completion of the class.

Do your own research as Paul and Vince and Dan an countless others have, don't just listen to a few posts or one persons opinion on things.

Jad, no one, including myself is saying that shuffle steering should not be used. I stated this early on. What I was saying is shuffle steering should be used only in tight corners where steering wheel rotation is greater than 180. Proper seat position eliminates fatigue so I do not think you should mix those in one topic. What I find and still have found is we are teaching this as the primary means of steering in auto-x when in fact it is not the primary means for steering, it is the exception.

Both techniques should be employed in a tight auto-x. As far as big tracks I have not seen a corner that requires it, even at streets or spring mountain for example where there are fairly tight turns. At the last driving school when I drove my car for students they asked me about the steering I was doing and noticed I was "mixing" it up. I explained the differences for them and both of them said that they had been taught in auto-x to suffle steer each corner. While this might not be the result PCA is looking for from the instructors it is what is taught this year for these students.


Regarding POC, I know this is a bad word here and hits a sesnitive note, but there are things to be learned by other clubs just as POC can learn from PCA. I do believe that even in auto-x the drivers will be better and will handle their cars far better if they avoid shuffle steering as much as possible and employ the 9 & 3 method. Secondly, if arm fatigue is an issue then it is likely the seating position is wrong. Most auto-x drivers I see and new TT drivers are far too far away from the wheel. I just ran a 65 minutie enduro at Buttonwillow and found that my arms were not tired at all, employing both the 9 and 3 position and a close seating position to the wheel. It eliminates arm fatigue. Now, being tired after a 30 minute cup race and a 65 minute enduro is another thing all together for this weekend hacker

[pdy]

The key point is that WE CAN LEARN HOW TO BE
BETTER INSTRUCTORS (and even learn from POC).

Shuffle steering, for instance. We should teach
this as a tool to be used when necessary, not a
habit. I suggest that periodically we should
review this (and probably other items) regarding
how we teach it at our PDS, and what we print in
the handbooks, etc.

Paul.

[Mike]

After my wife took the PDS, and I rode along with her during her Sunday afternoon final AX laps. She had the shuffle down, I think it was good a technique for her first ever weekend trying to discover her car control limits.

Imho (it's not my 1st choice, but) it worked well for her.

Another steering technique...

There are those that prefer to push the wheel and some that feel the correct method is to pull the wheel.

I like to push, like on Big Willow T2, the big right sweeper.
Left shoulder anchored against the seat, left arm slightly bent while pushing gently on the wheel.
Rupert from Spring Mtn gave me that pearl.

[Greg Phillips]

Before this gets out of hand and confuses new students, shuffle steering is an accepted high performance and racing technique used by many professional drivers, it is NOT a bad habit used only for introductory driving schools. Just because POC doesn't like it, doesn't mean you should not try it and see if it works for you.

Obviously, if you are in a Formula 1 car or kart with lock to lock of about 270 degress, you do not use this technique, however, any street based car allows this technique to be properly used to improve control, smoothness and also to greatly reduce fatigue. Another benefit is if the airbags ever go off, the shuffle steering position is safe, the arms crossed method will brake both arms and possibly more.

Everyone drives differently and likes different techniques. PCA-SDR teaches one very good widely accepted option of shuffle steer, and we just suggest students try it, it is NOT required for completion of the class.

Do your own research as Paul and Vince and Dan an countless others have, don't just listen to a few posts or one persons opinion on things.

Jad, no one, including myself is saying that shuffle steering should not be used. I stated this early on. What I was saying is shuffle steering should be used only in tight corners where steering wheel rotation is greater than 180. Proper seat position eliminates fatigue so I do not think you should mix those in one topic. What I find and still have found is we are teaching this as the primary means of steering in auto-x when in fact it is not the primary means for steering, it is the exception.

Both techniques should be employed in a tight auto-x. As far as big tracks I have not seen a corner that requires it, even at streets or spring mountain for example where there are fairly tight turns. At the last driving school when I drove my car for students they asked me about the steering I was doing and noticed I was "mixing" it up. I explained the differences for them and both of them said that they had been taught in auto-x to suffle steer each corner. While this might not be the result PCA is looking for from the instructors it is what is taught this year for these students.


Regarding POC, I know this is a bad word here and hits a sesnitive note, but there are things to be learned by other clubs just as POC can learn from PCA. I do believe that even in auto-x the drivers will be better and will handle their cars far better if they avoid shuffle steering as much as possible and employ the 9 & 3 method. Secondly, if arm fatigue is an issue then it is likely the seating position is wrong. Most auto-x drivers I see and new TT drivers are far too far away from the wheel. I just ran a 65 minutie enduro at Buttonwillow and found that my arms were not tired at all, employing both the 9 and 3 position and a close seating position to the wheel. It eliminates arm fatigue. Now, being tired after a 30 minute cup race and a 65 minute enduro is another thing all together for this weekend hacker

I will take exception to recommending only using shuffle steering for tight corners. I have noted it being used by Indy car drivers at the Indy 500. As they come off the straight and get ready to turn they reach up and then pull the wheel for the turn. I am sure that is not a tight corner
Just to make sure everyone has their chance to complain about shuffle steering, check out this link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/mai ... whit01.xml

I find that the shuffle steering is helpful for myself as well as new students. It helps them to slow down their hands and steering wheel inputs as they are usually too aggressive in their inputs.
If you are basing your steering technique on the one that helps you recover from a spin, then you are thinking backwards. You should be looking at the one that prevents the spin in the first place

Greg