Suggestion for a new teaching mantra

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Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:15 am

Also, I recall in a witness seeing Dan Chambers sitting on a chair in the middle of the parkin glot with a steering wheel demonstrating shuffle steering (sorry Dan, but it looked pretty funny!), but this in and of itself shows we clearly believe this is too important.....


WRONG! :nono: Sorry Kary, I was NOT using the steering wheel to demonstrate shuffle steering (although it is, as Jad and others point out, a very useful and effective tool). I was demonstrating the difference between smooth and rough steering inputs. :wink: (Perhaps if you were there and had listened to the demonstration instead of assuming what I was doing, you would have known the purpose of that particular teaching tool. :roll: Perhaps. What's that old saying ... When you "assume" you make an A$$ :shock: .... oh well. :lol: )

As for the debate of shuffle vs. "other," I think it's important to remember that most, if not all Instructors I've worked with as a student, as a co-Instructor, and as former-CDI have all emphasized that the "shuffle" in shuffle steering should occur if your leading hand must go beyond the bottom (6-o'clock) position and your top, or trailing hand goes beyond 12-o'clock position. AND, if the steering wheel must go beyond 180-degrees ( In other words, when the TDC/12-o'clock position of the steering wheel must pass beyond 6-o'clock/bottom of wheel position) you also would shuffle. Variations on this (like preparing for a turn by placing the lead-hand at 12-o'clock and the trailing just above 6-o'clock) can be taught later, with smooth, safe effect. This is still a form of shuffle steering.

I have always encouraged my students to avoid micro-shuffling. Instead, use the entire range of hand position starting at "9-and-3" before "shuffling." That is how countless PCA Instructors taught me (Jad, Ralph, Tom T., Keith V., Lewis W., Steve D., in finitum). IMO: IF it is the safer technique ... especially for new-to-the-sport drivers, THEN it should be considered useful and applied. The determining factor for safety seems to rest with the individual Instructor, from what I've seen.

This is just one person's opinion and is not necessarily the position of the PCA, the SDR, OCR or any of it's affiliates. All comments from this post are based on the opinion of just-one-guy and reflect his own experiences. No misconceptions, misinterpretations or misconstrued messages should be read into this post. This post is timely, and not necessarily appropriate for other posts dated before or henceforth. Any reuse of this post with editing should be considered non-bonified and irrelevent.

Be safe.
Last edited by Dan Chambers on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shuffle

Postby kary on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:04 am

I find that the shuffle steering is helpful for myself as well as new students. It helps them to slow down their hands and steering wheel inputs as they are usually too aggressive in their inputs.
If you are basing your steering technique on the one that helps you recover from a spin, then you are thinking backwards. You should be looking at the one that prevents the spin in the first place

Greg


Greg, unfortunately driving a 911 is always about catching a spin before it happens, if not a 911 driver is driving SLOOOWWWWWWW. Using shuffle steering as the back end is hanging out around a corner makes it impossible to saw the wheel and keep control of the car. If we are talking about a Sunday drive then I suppose shuffle steering would be great, but not very fast in these cases.
Your example stated is really not shuffle just preparing for a corner like Mike stated in turn 2 at willow, though I do it entirely differently because my car is oversteering thoughout the corner and I need to continuously catch the back end and keep the car rotating to make the turn, otherwise I would be SLOW there....
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Postby kary on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:10 am

WRONG! Sorry Kary, I was NOT using the steering wheel to demonstrate shuffle steering (although it is, as Jad and others point out, a very useful and effective tool). I was demonstrating the difference between smooth and rough steering inputs. (Perhaps if you were there and had listened to the demonstration instead of assuming what I was doing, you would have known the purpose of that particular teaching tool. Perhaps. What's that old saying ... When you "assume" you make an A$$ .... oh well. )


I stand correct oh great one!

The fact still remains shuffle steering is being misused by a great many students and the rest of the clubs out there are seeing the result, which is not useful on big tracks and does not show well for our club. Talk with any professional driver about this habit and they will tell you to stop using it.

So trying to stay on topic here what is the new mantra going to be for PCA SDR on this topic? I still stand by my suggestion for those that can remember.......
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Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:21 am

...which is not useful on big tracks...


Didn't we mention that earlier?? :roll: I'll continue to use the shuffle, with satisfactory results. To each his/her own. You can lead a horse to water ....

Well, anyway ... my mantra is "Smooth." I use it all the time ... especially when talking to myself (good thing I have a full-face helmet and no one can hear me!). :lol:
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Postby kary on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:34 am

Dan Chambers wrote:
...which is not useful on big tracks...


Didn't we mention that earlier?? :roll: I'll continue to use the shuffle, with satisfactory results. To each his/her own. You can lead a horse to water ....

Well, anyway ... my mantra is "Smooth." I use it all the time ... especially when talking to myself (good thing I have a full-face helmet and no one can hear me!). :lol:


What we have here Dan, is a failure to communicate.....anything useful....:)
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Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:48 am

kary wrote:
Dan Chambers wrote:
...which is not useful on big tracks...


Didn't we mention that earlier?? :roll: I'll continue to use the shuffle, with satisfactory results. To each his/her own. You can lead a horse to water ....

Well, anyway ... my mantra is "Smooth." I use it all the time ... especially when talking to myself (good thing I have a full-face helmet and no one can hear me!). :lol:


What we have here Dan, is a failure to communicate.....anything useful....:)


:lol: :lol: :lol: Good one!
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Postby Amail on Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:11 am

I alternate between shuffle steering and a "hand over hand" technique (not to be confused with crossing my arms). It depends on whether I'm preparing to turn or reacting to something.

I will slide my hands around the wheel a bit just before a tight turn so that my hands are in a more natural position in the middle of the turn. This is shuffle steering, right?

If I'm a little out of shape in a turn I am more interested in getting my hands quickly in the position I want on the wheel, which often means hand over hand.

As a new a/x driver, I'd be very interested to learn more about the two different techniques, and the pros and cons.
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Postby Zulu993 on Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:24 pm

It's amazing that we have a “few instructors” (Chambers) that think they drive like: Rohrl, Ickx, Rahal, Mass, etc in a parking lot and have mastered the Porsche Driving experience!

A more humble approach for our timid first timers may be more appropriate.
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Postby Dan Chambers on Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:10 am

Zulu993 wrote:It's amazing that we have a “few instructors” (Chambers) that think they drive like: Rohrl, Ickx, Rahal, Mass, etc in a parking lot and have mastered the Porsche Driving experience!

A more humble approach for our timid first timers may be more appropriate.


Well, Mr./Ms. Zulu993, (whoever you are) ... If I have given some kind of impression that I drive anything more than the humble amateur that I am, I apologize for the misconception. I consider myself perhaps in the same ranks as Bob McLaughlin, Doug Briggs, Jerry Mize, Thomas Hoffmann, John Kinkaid, Greg Sharp, Chuck Sharp, Carolyn Torbert-Hays ... and almost as good as Jackie Corwin ... all of whom have "handed me my hat" and soundly defeated me at different events. Rohrl, Ixkx, Mass?... I wouldn't even dream...... :oops:

And if I have offended you personally with anything I've posted, I apologize for that, too. 8)

Have a nice day. :wink:
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Postby Mike on Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:02 am

Zulu993 wrote:It's amazing that we have a “few instructors” (Chambers) that think they drive like: Rohrl, Ickx, Rahal, Mass, etc in a parking lot and have mastered the Porsche Driving experience!

A more humble approach for our timid first timers may be more appropriate.


You don't know Dan. :wink:
The great thing about the Porsche club is there is always someone with a faster newer Porsche that can/should humble any of us.

PCA Instructors and volunteers spend weekends and valuable free time making this club better.
This entire thread is just discussion about improving the program.

Why reduce yourself to name calling or public judgements, these types of comments can and do alienate volunteers.
Michael_Gagen :D

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Postby Bill Behun on Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:08 am

JHPGT3 - Thanks for responding to my question waaay back at the beginning of this most interesting thread.

The instructors meeting/dinner on the 30th should be interesting. NO FOOD FIGHTS PLEASE!
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