Idea for revamping the classification of cars

[Jad]

I don't think anyone would dispute that an early 911 is harder to drive at 10/10 than a Boxster or a 944.

Hey, I'll take that challenge and dispute it for the sake of the forum

OK, it is clearly much more difficult to drive a 911 than a Boxster if you don't know how to drive, and possibly even harder to learn, but once you master pitch and catch, along with throttle steer and the basic car control techniques, I think an early 911 becomes a very drivable and fun car because it is so easy to pitch, catch and control. Sure, a Boxster with ABS will allow you to hit the brakes or lift in a corner, but I would doubt there is too much of that going on at our level.

So for me, having raced both (though the 911's were newer), I would say 911's are much harder to drive as an amature, or at the say 9/10th level, but when really being pushed do exactly what the driver tells it, which is a good thing. One you have that, it all about proper line, smoothness and control regardless of the dynamics of a specific car.

Anyone buying this

ABS and a smooth shifting tranny kinda hurt the arguement, but the 944's I learned on didn't have ABS....

[Kim Crosser]

Not having been a 911 owner, my experience is only from students' cars, but it seemed easier to teach certain techniques earlier in the early 911's - students could encounter and learn to control oversteer (e.g., throttle steering and pitch-and-catch) at lower speeds than in the Boxster and later 911's.

At least 4 different students at last weekend's PDE told me they couldn't really experience throttle steering and pitch-and-catch because they (and their instructors) couldn't get the rear end moving out. Two were late-model C2/C4 drivers and two were Boxster drivers. One guy in a C2 said that even Steve Dente couldn't get the car to pitch-and-catch at the exercise pad.

As we all know, you can get the rear end loose on any car with enough speed, but it has got to be a bit intimidating to first encounter oversteer at 60-70 MPH instead of 30-40.

My comment earlier was a joke, son - I haven't found 911's to be any harder to drive well than a Boxster. The only ones I have found "interesting" to drive near the limit are the 930 and 928 (of course, I haven't had a chance with a GT3 yet! )

[MikeD]

I think I'd buy Kim's argument over Jad's (sorry Capt'n, I'll go swab the deck now...).

[bryanearll]

As one of those C2 owners who couldn't experience pitch and catch on the skid pad. Nobody could do it, we plowed all over the place.

I was able to get it to work during the Accident avoidance and the Threshold breaking exercises as well, of course, as the AX.

It was much easier to get the back end loose there and with a day of confidence building exercises it was fun!!!!!

Further, it seemed at speed that much of the understeer problem went away as well.

Special thanks to the instructors, in particular Chuck and Jay for those break through moments.
B

[martinreinhardt]

It was difficult to do the pitch and catch exercice with the Tiptronic cars, because they shifted automaticly in 2nd gear (around 4500 RPM). This resulted in understeer (no or too little weight transfer to the front wheels = no pitch)

The trick was to try to keep it in 1st gear by watching the RPM not exceeding the shift point. Of course it wasn't as much fun as with a manual gearbox but it worked. Plus, that is how the students cars will reacts in a situation like that.

[martinreinhardt]

Hmm, I think Jad is right. The 911 is more difficult to drive fast compare to a Boxster, because it is not as forgiving. But once you firgured it out it becomes such a blast and very controllable.

I know my last two pitches at the sundays autox were not the right example for the pitch and catch exercice. Just had too much fun getting the rear end lose.

[Curt]

I think I would have to agree with you guys. Early 911's are just as easy to drive as brand new Porsche's with 50-50 weight distribution, power steering, and ABS. After all, we all have read in the Porsche history books how the factory laid off all of it's engineers in 1973 and never hired them back. I believe Ferry Porsche was quoted as saying, "We have achieved absolute perfection in every way with the 1973 911. It is not humanly possible to engineer a better car than what we have achieved in our 1973 911." All those poor engineers, out of work for all these years. It's too bad, because I'm pretty sure they might have been able to come up with some sort of development that would have made their cars handle, accellerate, and brake better.

If a guy driving a 1948 Porsche said to me, "yeah, but your car does everything better than mine does", I'd think "it sure as he11 better because some of the best automotive engineers in the world have spent 25 years developing Porsche." Add 25 years to my cars age and you have 1998. As in the rest of the businesses and technologies in the world, there hasn't been much technical advancement in the last 25-30 years, right?

To say that an early 911 is easier to learn pitch and catch in while driving is like saying it's easier to learn to swim while cliff diving. If you don't learn it pretty darn fast, it's game over. And that back end, as much as you think you know how to handle it, is ALWAYS lying in wait, just looking for a chance to surprise you. Don't ever think you have pitch and catch down to a science in an early 911 and don't ever think you have rattlesnake milking down pat either.

Dan, Mick, and I were talking about this at the Pahrump event when Bernies Boxster, Jads 944T and the red RS America were all giving us fits in our run group. Dan said, "our cars give you so much direct feedback all over the track." I asked him why is most of the feedback terrifying?

[Kim Crosser]

Some things the new cars DO bring to the table - no fear of flat-spotting with ABS, no fear of over-revving the motor with a rev-limiter, and no fear of shredding a tire with LSD.

When I was driving Tim Comeau's 944-SPEC (with none of the above), I was constantly having to be watchful of these, lest I flat-spot, shred, blow up, or all of the above.

It is nice in the later models to not have to worry about those - especially when you just want to feed in full power out of a turn and don't have to worry about smoking the inside tire. (By the way - LOVED Bob McLaughlin's great smokin' finish on Sunday - turbo + no LSD = wow! )

[MikeD]

To say that an early 911 is easier to learn pitch and catch in while driving is like saying it's easier to learn to swim while cliff diving.

It isn't?

Daaave!! You lied to me!

[gulf911]

Curt has done his usual fine job of preaching the truth, so I will only say....
Anyone who says a Boxster isn't a more forgiving (read easier to drive) than an early 911, hasn't "Driven" an early 911. Drive an early 911 for a while (year(s)) then get in a Boxster and the glaring reality hits you in the face. You can brake later and still keep the car on the track, turn in while on the brakes and not have the car do a 180.....etc etc etc....at an ax is one thing, at a track the speeds and dynamics all change, especially for an early 911.... A boxster is a very capable car....as Curt eluded to, it ought to be, its 25 years+ newer. The same holds true with a 944, 50/50 weight distribution might just be easier to handle than 40/60....This is not a knock on any of the Boxster or 944 drivers....nor is it promotion of 911 drivers.
It was very clear while a passenger in Jads Scooner..er uh I mean Death Star, in Pahrump, come in to a corner, turn the wheel and hold it there, feathering the throttle getting around the corner...Try to do that in a 911 and you will end up in the weeds!...
The 911 requires a balancing act of steering and throttle, and an good assometer to keep that backend from stepping out past the point of no return. Once you commit and are in the corner, DONT LIFT!! All which translates into 'less forgiving' and harder to 'drive'. And there in lies why I drive and prefer the 911, that balancing act is what makes the car much more fun/exciting to drive, at least IMHO. As a side note, I have owned my car for quite a few years now and I am still learning the characteristics of the car at speed, which in essence means the car is still a lot more capable than I am. So no, if you haven't owned a 911, you can't get into a students 911 and say you don't see any difference between a Boxster and a 911...

[gulf911]

Here is a pertinent question for Jad...if we would have switched cars on Sunday, assuming we have similar driving capabilities, who would have the faster laps sooner? Ok, everybody hum the Jeopardy music...

[Greg Phillips]

I know my last two pitches at the sundays autox were not the right example for the pitch and catch exercice. Just had too much fun getting the rear end lose

If watching the last corner of the PDS autocross is any indication, the 911, even in the later iteration of the 964 (RSA) does not pitch and catch nearly as well as the 928 and 944
Martin, Keith, and David never seemd to to catch the drift, and Dan C showed a great one in his 944, showed me both sides of his car and tucked it in and headed straight past the finish line.

Greg

[kary]

Myself and Jack having a little fun.....

Maybe threre needed to be more 911 drivers out there

[Jad]

Here is a pertinent question for Jad...if we would have switched cars on Sunday, assuming we have similar driving capabilities, who would have the faster laps sooner? Ok, everybody hum the Jeopardy music...

What is switching cars for a rungroup at the Dec event and seeing who gets a better time, Alex.

The double jeopardy 'question', "Turbo lag and too much weight."

[Kim Crosser]

Anyone who says a Boxster isn't a more forgiving (read easier to drive) than an early 911, hasn't "Driven" an early 911.

I agree absolutely.

However, if you look closely at my post, what I said was that the early 911's give students an opportunity to encounter oversteer earlier (i.e., at lower speeds) than the Boxsters and later 911's. This means that it is easier to teach some techniques (throttle steering and pitch-and-catch, for example) at lower speeds (and higher student comfort levels) in those cars, whereas students first encounter those at much higher speeds in the newer cars.

IMHO, the Boxster is so forgiving that it actually slows skill building - when students can charge into a corner way too hot and still get through as a result of neutral handling and real good brakes with ABS, it is harder to get them to understand "in slow, out fast". You don't have that option in an early 911, unless you are planning on exiting the corner backwards.

With the Boxster, the students have to intellectually understand the concepts and then mentally learn to apply them - with the early 911's, students viscerally experience the concepts pretty darn quick.