Need info/pic

[gulf911]

LEGAL chip (ask Steve, he specified the part number) 0 points
total 8 points

"Legal" Performance Chip 0 points?!?! In "Stock" class....Now I have heard everything...

I definately have to talk to Steve and see if i can do the same...You hear that Erik?? The smurfs days are numbered...

[Jad]

If you want whining, wouldn't an RS get points for weight, wide body, suspension changes and probably other things that would take it out of S class as they are options on the GT3? Even with stock tires... I do not see the RS listed as a legal car in QSS, so every change from the stock GT3 should be points, right.

[Steve Grosekemper]

If you want whining, wouldn't an RS get points for weight, wide body, suspension changes and probably other things that would take it out of S class as they are options on the GT3? Even with stock tires... I do not see the RS listed as a legal car in QSS, so every change from the stock GT3 should be points, right.

IMHO - Yes, it gets points for everything that separates it from a "base" GT3.

From the Z-8 Rules:Any car listed in Section II Part B, classes A-Q is considered a base model Porsche. Any car not listed (ignoring those listed in classes X, Panamera or Cayenne) is considered a base model with options and must take points for any different equipment as listed in this section. As an example, the 993 C4S is therefore considered to be a 993 with options.

If you want an official ruling just send an email to Tom Brown Z-8 Rules guru.
tb911@adelphia.net

[Steve Grosekemper]

LEGAL chip (ask Steve, he specified the part number) 0 points
total 8 points

"Legal" Performance Chip 0 points?!?! In "Stock" class....Now I have heard everything...

I definately have to talk to Steve and see if i can do the same...You hear that Erik?? The smurfs days are numbered...

Chips are free for all classes except street stock. Chips that increase boost in turbo charged cars are assessed 7 points for boost.
Yes, 951S cars are kinda cheater cars because they do not fit well into any class. There are other cars that "ruin" their classes as well but no system is perfect.

And I'm not telling what cars those are...

[Steve Grosekemper]

There seems to be some confusion/misinformation about protests. Who can protest who and how it is done.
So here is what the 2009 rule book says about protests:

Take a look for yourself, but I think this is what you want to know.

1-If you think someone out of your class is "misclassified" contact the Protest Committee. If they are in your class contact the event chair.
2-An informal protest can be made without any fee or paperwork. I did a few of these last year and most all were because of driver ignorance where the rules were concerned; not to gain an unfair advantage.
3-The protest must be filed 30 minutes after the last car runs for time. But it is much easier to start with and informal protest early in the day.
4-An official protest requires a $30 fee to be paid.
5-The Protest Committee consists of the Regional Event Chairperson, the Zone Event Chairperson and the Zone 8 Representative. If any of these positions are duplicated or unavailable, the members present may select any region president, board officer, or other Zone 8 Staff member without a conflict of interest to stand in.

XI PROTESTS
Protests are the formal means to deal with allegations of deliberately ignoring the car classification rules or other unfair behavior. An informal discussion with the Event Chairperson and the concerned parties may resolve the possible protest. This is to be encouraged before a formal protest is filed.
A. Procedure:
1. All vehicles must remain unchanged and be available for inspection for 30 minutes following the completion of timed runs.
2. Protests can only be made by the Protest Committee or by entrants from within their own class.
3. Protests must be made prior to the expiration of the 30-minute inspection period and must be made in writing. A protest fee of $30.00 cash must accompany any protest made by an entrant. Protest Committee members acting on behalf of a class in which they are not competing are exempt from the fee. If the protest is upheld the fee shall be returned. If the protest is denied it shall be forfeited.
4. It is expected that protests be reasonable, based on sound evidence and submitted in the spirit of fairness. If, in the opinion of the protest committee, the protester has acted in a manner inconsistent with the spirit of fairness and good sportsmanship, the protest will be considered to be in bad faith, the protest will be denied and the protest fee forfeited.
5. Procedure for protests involving engine or transmission or other disassembly:
a. Impound of car: Car owner and Protest Committee.
b. Location of tear down: Car owner and Protest Committee.
c. Who can perform work: Car owner or mechanic of his/her choice.
d. Who can be present: Car owner, mechanic, Protest Committee or its representative, and person making protest.
AX, DE & TT Page 21
e. Deposit: The protester must provide a deposit sufficient to cover the necessary expenses for the inspection.
6. Any car protested must remain unchanged until the protest is decided. Protests will automatically be upheld for any car that is changed. A car found to be illegally represented shall be disqualified.
7. A protest will automatically be upheld if the driver or owner of a protested vehicle refuses to allow inspection of the vehicle.
8. If a car is found to be legal, the deposit is forfeited. If it is found to be illegal, the deposit is returned and the car owner pays the shop.
B. The Protest Committee will evaluate the facts through various means and make the decision.
C. The ruling of the Protest Committee may be appealed in writing to the Zone 8 Competition Committee within five days of the protest ruling.
D. Cars or entrants unavailable for protest or inspection as addressed above may have series points or standings withheld pending a decision from the Competition Committee.

[Kone Killer]

Listening to you experienced guys go on about (hey he was running this or that) and is that legal. Got me in the mood to spout off my issue.

I was just wondering (whining) (and I probably speak for any other person running a early 996) as to why I (we) have to run in a class that I (we) are totally outclassed. I am running in NS/S against Boxter and Cayman S's with a 1999 996. I know that it has the same or close to the same horsepower but that is as far as it goes. From my point of view the midengine cars should be in there own class. This is not to say I don't have fun, the camaraderie, helping set up the track, doing my corner work, helping take the track down, thrashing around out there in my old water buffalo, learning to drive my car, having a beer and telling stories at the end of a long hard day of Autocross is what I joined the club and AX for.

But, with the current class setup in NS/S there is no way I or any 996 driver will ever get a 3rd place sticker on the side of my (their) helmet or top five finish for that matter (unless there is only four Boxster or Cayman S's running that day) and it would be fun to be able to do that once and awhile too. The N class needs to be reviewed and broken down to sub classes or a new class established so that the early 996 guys have the same chance for that feeling of placing as well as anyone else out there has.

There I am done whining. Let's have a beer and tell lies

[gulf911]

While I havent driven a 996 (its against my religion.. ) and in no way to impune your driving ability, maybe have Jad Duncan drive your car to see where its at. Or maybe there is some additional tweaks that Steve Grosekemper could do, if you haven't done them already. Its like Steve said its not a perfect system and thats what the rules committe and your input is for. I drove a 911E in G class for a few years , Probably the perfect car for the class until it was changed. Then a bit ago , for a year they allowed 3.6L widebody cars in AM (my class) , my 3.2 with rear SC flairs wasn't even in the ballpark on big tracks, ax was closer. So its an ever changing environment as new cars come out. Anyway just an idea.

[Steve Grosekemper]

While I havent driven a 996 (its against my religion.. ) and in no way to impune your driving ability, maybe have Jad Duncan drive your car to see where its at. Or maybe there is some additional tweaks that Steve Grosekemper could do, if you haven't done them already. Its like Steve said its not a perfect system and thats what the rules committe and your input is for. I drove a 911E in G class for a few years , Probably the perfect car for the class until it was changed. Then a bit ago , for a year they allowed 3.6L widebody cars in AM (my class) , my 3.2 with rear SC flairs wasn't even in the ballpark on big tracks, ax was closer. So its an ever changing environment as new cars come out. Anyway just an idea.

Dan that's the most sensible thing I think I have ever seen your name attached to. Is this the kinder friendlier Dan??
I think you are spot on with the Dr. Duncan evaluation, He is the smoothest/fastest driver I know. He could give you a baseline without your car feeling any pain. And a stock 996 alignment is a lession in frustration at an AX that any of the local independents shops could cure. (You know the names) That being said, I would never let Jad drive one of my cars in competition where our times could be publicly compared. Karting is bad enough, but at least then I have the weight excuse...
My ego is just not that resilient.

[LUCKY DAVE]

Having your car evaluated at the track by a superior (or at least different) driver is always a good idea. You (me!) may be under the impression that it's dialed in pretty close. That impression may be way off, but you can't see it because you're used to the car.
Maybe it understeers like a drunken BMW, maybe the brakes hardly work, perhaps the rear spring rate is far too hard, etc. etc.
In my case, I've asked Eric to take my car for a few laps at the next event. Who knows what he will say? In any case, it will be illuminating.


Years ago I worked for a good 'ol boy from Arkansas (one of the smartest guys I ever met).
He had a saying: "Two heads are better than one, even if one's a sheeps head"
He was right.

[Kone Killer]

I thank you lads for all your advice and support. I forgot to give you more info on me and my car. Last season was my first, I went to performance driving school last April and was running factory alignment and Conti Sport Contacts 3's (which really suck) all season. During driving school my main instructors were John Simon, John Komer and George Copland. John Komer and John Simon also rode with me during my Instructor ride alongs. George said it handled the best of any stock 1999 996 he has driven. John Simon and John Komer both have driven the car and both said that if I had an agressive alingment and Stickier tires I would probably shave 2-3 seconds off my times. Two to three seconds is very significant. So I have purchased a set of Kuhmo 's 180 treadwear and I am getting a AX alignment. I am very eager to have Jad or Erik take it out. I figure the car will be faster and balance and smoothness are up to me. However, I know as well as any of the above mentioned instructors, there is no way that car is going to be competitve against Boxter and Cayman S's.

Again guys thanks for your advice. I think I need a beer

[Jad]

I hate to break it to you, but except for the 09 versions, you have a slight HP advantage over the Boxster S and Cayman S. More importantly you can put the power down in an AX on street tires. I do not like the S models at the AX and think the non-S versions are faster as the results tend to support as you just can't put the power down without a limited slip or the engine on the back tires like the 996. See how often LSS beats NSS with their ~200 hp and good driving. You gave a nice list of good instructors, though none of them have any experience with newer 911 Porsches that I am aware to really know if your car has any issues.

The one time I ran my 2003 Targa last year, totally stock alignment, cheap tires and a Targa top, I beat all the Cayman S's and Boxster S's by 3 seconds and still lost to Tom M in another 996. The 3.6 is faster than the 3.4, but not that much. I really would work on seat time and learning as an early 996 is very capable of winning the class in my opinion.

As suggested above, if you would like my input, request me as an instructor at an upcoming AX and we can ride together and check things out.

[Kone Killer]

Thank you Jad, I wil request you for the February AX.

[Krokodil]

You 911 drivers really need to pick an argument. A couple of years ago it was "the Cayman is not a real Porsche", "he could not afford 911", yada, yada. Now, in both the PCA and POC it is "the Cayman has an unfair advantage", "those guys should be in their own class", yada yada.

Why can't we all get along?

See some of you in Vegas this weekend.

Cheers,

[harnishclan]

Great article in Excellence comparing a mildy modified Cayman S to heavily modified 997S and Turbo. Having only about half the HP of either, the Cayman almost came out on top. As for my own personal test track-Cayman S beats 993 by a lot (but is horrible in rain across RR tracks!).

[gulf911]

Dan that's the most sensible thing I think I have ever seen your name attached to. Is this the kinder friendlier Dan??

Jad? In my lowly 211hp puny 3.2L car? He can't beat me in his own 3.6L fire breathing Challenge car... Wow, I feel better now...back to my old self...I don't know what came over me...

I do realize I will have to pay for that Jad...