What's an "other car" Autocross?

[sushinav]

Does this mean folks shouldn't, won't or can't drive their P-cars? Or will folks be there in the P-cars, just no points?

[MikeD]

Yes, p-cars will be out there. But no points, and members are encouraged to bring other non-Porsche cars.

I've considered bringing my Range Rover but I don't think they'd let me. Probably because no amount, or size of cones would keep me from going wherever the heck I wanted .

[Jad]

The question is would you be going over them with tires or with doors, roof, doors, roof?

Did you see the 5th gear episode where they compared SUV handing to car handling? I think the Range Rover rolled 5-6 times, whereas the car spun.

I think I will bring the 944 to battle with Dan, but Amy will bring the 'other car', the Targa, NOT the X5! The other car ax is a good chance to bring an S2000, Mini, BMW sedan, vette, etc, not the truck/SUV.

[MikeD]

I did not see the one where the RR rolled . But I did see the one where they tracked it against the X5, ML500, and something else. The RR didn't do so well on track but it didn't roll. Also note, that they never tested them where the Land Rover has always excelled ... off-road.

And, yes I did mean rolling over cones with tires, or maybe even bumpers.

[MikeD]

And P.S. I've driven my RR in some pretty extreme circumstances. I think you would actually have to TRY and roll it. Just driving it around an AX track, listening to the car would NOT induce a roll-over.

[Jad]

Didn't see the one they tracked SUV's. My question would be WHY? Anyway, they didn't try to roll the RR. They just drove down a runway and swerved to avoid a car that broke infront of them. The RR rolled and rolled, and not the good way. To be fair, it was the OLD style and they did expect it and had put a full cage in the car, race seat with harness etc. They had all the others there, but didn't test any of the others. Would have been very interesting to see an X5 or new SUV to compare. Still scary as that happened at 45 mph and there are a LOT of old SUV's out there. They repeat it with a Jaguar X-type sedan at 45, 55, 75 and nothing but a spin. Having tried the X5 at our miniax last year, I agree it would be hard to roll, but probably do-able. I didn't get that sense in the Cayenne, BUT the Cayenne's all had adjustable suspensions fully lowered, and a smooth, flat, low grip surface. The problem with SUV's is the stiff springs combined with lots of wheel travel can build up a LOT of energy for boucing the car back after the swail or an off camber turn.

The other problem, you should see what a couple laps of 5000lbs vehicles does to front tires!

[David J Marguglio]

The RR rolled and rolled, and not the good way. To be fair, it was the OLD style

Dont worry, Mike drives the old style!

[MikeD]

The RR rolled and rolled, and not the good way. To be fair, it was the OLD style

Dont worry, Mike drives the old style!

We prefer "Classic" rather than "old"!

And, yes it might roll if I suddenly jerked the wheel in one direction or the other (so uhhh... don't do that! ). Especially, with my 2" lift, stiff XHD springs, and 1.5" taller-than-stock with super-flex-o-rock-crawling-sidewalls tires. That's one of the reasons I'm getting an ARB bumper and skid plate, so I don't have to suddenly do anything. If you slam on your p-car brakes directly in front of me that's your tough luck! Especially when I'm pulling close to #5K worth of trailer, car, and race equipment!

[gulf911]

Actually, it would be your tough luck, as you would not only be at fault, but I would have myself a new car courtesy Of Mike D and his insurance company...

[Jad]

Or your widow would....

My problem is that I am not that good a driver. Mike, can you really control your reflexes based on what car/truck you are in? My brain is hardwired to avoid accident. This works great in a car, but after a couple of close calls in my Isuzu Amigo (would have been non-events in a car), it went away to be replaced by an Audi quattro. I thought my SUV days were over. Unfortunately, my towing needs forced me back into the truck world, but the X5 handles like a bad sports sedan . That I can live with (figuratively and literally).

[MikeD]

Honestly? You are right Jad. I'm not going to purposefully run someone over, no matter how irritated I get behind the wheel. I was just ribbing you and Dave to have a little fun. And to point out that the RR is one of the only purpose built off-roaders with any style or class (well, used to be anyhow). I'm sure your X5 is a nice commuter, but no way it could keep up with my RR (even when it was stock), in even a relatively benign area like Truck Haven.

<rant>

But, on the serious side. Am I the only one who gets cut-off with barely enough room to stop while towing? Maybe there's a little more respect for a new X5, ML, or F150, so it's not so bad. But I swear on any given tow it feels like I am going to send my Boxster through my back window at LEAST 5 times. Even with upgraded brakes, trailer brakes (on all 4 wheels), new tires, new shocks/springs, and ample following distance. Some moron thinks that opening is just for him and the 5 idiots behind him to make a last second exit off the freeway. I've been lucky so far, but I know it's just a matter of time before I have no choice but to run over that little Civic, Eclipse, or what-have-you. And when that time comes you can bet you sweet a$$ the judge is going to get more photos, measurements, and data than he/she can handle.

</rant>

[Kim Crosser]

A very interesting point with the SUVs is that they are very susceptible to roll-over resulting from a fairly low speed left-right (or right-left) change of direction (think "slalom" ).

I got the right wheels of my old Jeep Cherokee 4x4 airborne when a possum ran into the road. At 45 MPH (the posted limit) I swerved left to avoid him, as he was in mid-road going right. He then reversed and headed left, so I swerved back to the right - BIG MISTAKE. Suddenly, I am WAY up on two wheels and it feels like I am going over. I turned back into the roll and the wheels came back down with a bang - popped off both wheel trim rings from the impact.

Next time - possum frisbee...

If you are AXing with an older SUV, truck, or other high-center of gravity vehicle, I would be very cautious in the slalom section (or in any tight pair of opposing turns). I was instructing in an older Subaru hatchback/wagon last year, and it handled any single turn ok (not like a P-car, but at least it slid rather than rolling). However, I backed it way down in the slalom - with soft springs and a lot of body roll, it felt really ugly at the second swerve.

[Jad]

Mike, I knew you were kinda kidding, I was trying to say, I would like to think possum frisbee, but in the instant I saw him, would think accident avoidence first, then most like OH S%^%^**&% as I am rolling....

By the way, my X5 is a great off roader with computer controlled 4 wheel drive maximizing traction for each wheel (and some other complete garbage BMW tries to use to convince people that it is not just a tall stationwagon), just check the brochure if you are not completely convinced of its offroad prowess. I confirmed this by driving in a dirt parkinglot at a pumkin patch and easily cleared the gravel and flew threw the moist dirt that may have caused problems for the 944 on racetires!

[MikeD]

Mike, I knew you were kinda kidding, I was trying to say, I would like to think possum frisbee, but in the instant I saw him, would think accident avoidence first, then most like OH S%^%^**&% as I am rolling....

Ahhh, yes, I misunderstoof your previous post. Like you, I would like to think I would analyze the situation before acting (especially in my not-so-nimble SUV). But who knows when your approaching said obstacle at 60+MPH.

By the way, my X5 is a great off roader with computer controlled 4 wheel drive maximizing traction for each wheel (and some other complete garbage BMW tries to use to convince people that it is not just a tall stationwagon), just check the brochure if you are not completely convinced of its offroad prowess. I confirmed this by driving in a dirt parkinglot at a pumkin patch and easily cleared the gravel and flew threw the moist dirt that may have caused problems for the 944 on racetires!

[David J Marguglio]

Mike: you are not the only one that experiences the utter lack of respect for large trucks/suv with trailers. People do not understand how long it takes you to stop with all that weight behind you - I too have been guilty of the same I'm sure. In fact, it wasnt until I started towing (boats, cars, etc.) that I developed a respect for the semis and other big rigs and their right to space.

Kim & Jad: with regard to your avoid/possum frisbee conundrum, just do what I do – I visualize it being a cat and then head right toward it. The purpose is three-fold: first, if the rodent is so dumb as to just stand there as you barrel down on it you are mererly giving Darwinism a helpful push; secondly, if it is at least as smart as Dan C. it will appreciate your “predictable line” and will take steps to avoid its premature retirement. Lastly, and most obviously, it is safer and provides handy roll-up for the local coyotes.