Sound Meter FUN!

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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby LaLa661 on Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:24 pm

Gunter wrote:So you measured me at 94??!!How?


rshon wrote:I think we need to calibrate the loose nut behind the sound meter... :wink:


Everyone just simmer down. As I mentioned earlier, the measurements from the last event don't really count because they weren't taken in the way that we intend to....meaning that the sound meter wasn't placed at 50 ft perpendicular to the track, and it wasn't in a location where we would actually be measuring anyhow (the meter was placed at the start, not at a straightaway).

So relax a little bit, ya?
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby Ted Myrus on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:44 pm

This sound level thing is all very subjective.
As a tenant of the City we must respect our neighbors. The "Q" is at the bottom of Mission Valley, the complaining neighbors, in the past, live high on the rim of the canyon. In the last 5 to 10 years they have moved down and closer to the track. They potentially live in the condos adjacent to the Budweiser sign. The sound we generate echos in the bowl toward our neighbors. So we don't want to measure our sound as it bounces off the "Q" or the Lowes' building.

It has been asked in this thread what is the DB level ? Good question. To be safe PCA has used 92, other clubs use 93. It has also been asked why do we measure at 50 feet? The 50 foot measurement comes from the California Vehicle Code section 231130. The State measures total vehicle noise from the center of the lane of travel within in a specified speed limit. There's a lot of wiggle room there. It depends on the weight of the vehicle or combination of vehicle, if it is 35 mph or less or 35 mph or more, is it a motor vehicle or a motorcycle. The sound is measured as a drive by under any condition, such as load, grade, acceleration, or deceleration. It also states total vehicle noise, for you Laguna Seca guys that includes induction noise, I don't know about you but my Webers suck a lot of air.The range is 76 to 90 dba. Again, that is measured from the center of the lane of travel to the meter, it says nothing about 45 degrees. We are generous at a 92 dba level.

Yes, I know stock GT3's produced more then 90 dba. While the CHP is giving you a noise ticket, he'll also give you a citation for no front license plate. GOOD LUCK! :wink:
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby John Straub on Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:43 am

Ted, has a point. A few years ago when I was running my 914/6GT at the Stadium I found that the two 46 Webers on my car were making a lot of induction noise pushing it over 92db...so I make some sound boxes that fit over them for the Stadium, problem solved. :)

If that is your problem, let me know and I'll give you some info on them.

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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby MR LIPP on Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:24 pm

Nobody has acknowledged the elephant in the room, so I will.
As someone who sweats the break-even on some of our racing events, I have a concern that we will be turning away a growing number of participants from our events. This seems like a solution to a non-existent problem in that there have been no complaints as of yet. Qualcomm Stadium has games, fireworks and drag racing at NIGHT. When they start shutting down those events, we can start to worry.
I just got my exhaust to sound the way I like it and will skip events before putting it back.
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby pdy on Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:46 pm

Yes, there are events that make a lot more noise than our cars, and some of these events make a lot more money that we do too (for the city).
Some are definitely exempt from noise restrictions, but maybe not all are.

Still, it would be good to know what the "official" Stadium dB limit is for auto events, without attracting too much attention. :roll:
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby SDGT3 on Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:32 pm

I think we should tread lightly with this issue as there are so many variables. It's true that some cars are clearly too loud, but I think a lot of cars that are not (spec 944s, Boxsters) will not "pass" because the db meter is not set up properly and effectively kills the golden goose of PCA autocrosses.

As Paul mentioned, we should find out what the "official" db noise level is for the stadium. Second, I understand the rational in using SCCA regulations for consistency, but why should we use their parameters? I'd rather use it as a suggetion and create our own PCA guidelines. Where did the SCCA come up with their guideline anyway; at Qualcomm or Kansas? The unique nature of the Qualcomm site is such that we get a lot of "reverb" from the stadium itself, Lowe's, the office tower and the parking structure. If SCCA came up with this in some open field/parking lot in Kansas, the noise disipates at a different level than the Q.

DId anyone consider the background noise from the aforementioned reverb, the other 5 cars on track at the same time as the car being measured, or the noise from the trolleys that at times are loader than some of the race cars? How about the noise from fuel tanker truck big rigs on Friars Road that use Jake Brakes? Harleys on Friars?

I appreciate the concern for the neighbors to the stadium, and the intent to keep on top of it and make sure we don't go too far to the other side, but I don't like the inconsistent methods of measurements followed by enforcement of exclusion. As Gunter stated, Laguna Seca is extremely tough with their noise levels and to have such a different reading from a track that is operational everyday to our once a month autocross shows that WE as a club need to examine this closer before implementation.
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby John Straub on Sat Oct 24, 2009 7:33 pm

When the 92db or 93db limit was set, there was no Lowe's, parking structure, condos, or office tower. That limit came from the stadium people "back in the day" before all that. Clearly the parking lot has become more of a bowl over the years which does not help with the reverb.

The stadium people that set that limit are no longer around, and they have been long gone. So maybe it's best to check next time we get our dates.

John
Last edited by John Straub on Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby Mmagus on Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:43 pm

A few things.

First I lay claim to the Paul Young levels...me mine..I was drivining..the are mine all mine do you hear me!? (picture Daffy duck hovering over the pearl he found)

Second. The concert in the lower parking lott was MUCH louder than any car that ran today...so it might be good to take note of the events that way exceed ours...just in case a complaint is made.

Third. As far as making inquireies with the stadium I really think it would be best to keep records of the average sound output of our events on a spread sheet so that we can bring up any date in question. this si something that I did in our church and it was interesting to note that the pipe organ wasy MUCH louder than that "derned modering rock and roll worship stuff"

Otherwise "Let sleeping dogs lie" something which many wise people throughout the ages have expressed.

It is nought good a slepyng hound to wake.
[c 1385 Chaucer

It is euill wakyng of a slepyng dog.
[1546 J. Heywood Dialogue of Proverbs

It's best To let a sleeping mastiff rest.
[1681 S. Colvil Whigs' Supplication

or as the French say...n'esveillez pas lou chien qui dort, wake not the sleeping dog. (Yes...even the French get this) :o

A silly way to point out that if we start asking if things are ok...they soon won't be.

Cheers,

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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby ttweed on Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:42 pm

SDGT3 wrote: Where did the SCCA come up with their guideline anyway; at Qualcomm or Kansas? The unique nature of the Qualcomm site is such that we get a lot of "reverb" from the stadium itself, Lowe's, the office tower and the parking structure. If SCCA came up with this in some open field/parking lot in Kansas, the noise disipates at a different level than the Q.

Peter-
The SD Region SCCA clubs (and there are 5 of them making up a coalition to stage events here in town under a Committee structure with a governing Executive Board) came up with their procedures locally, specifically for the situation at the Q when it became an issue many decades ago. Their procedures were not developed in Kansas, or by the National SCCA organization. The sound regs and procedures they developed came out of negotiations and agreements with the Stadium Authority and the surrounding neighbors. They are not from the Solo National rulebook, but from the San Diego Region SCCA Supplemental Regs, specifically for the Qualcomm site. The national body allows the local region to make regulations according to site-specific and regional requirements, and the national Solo Events Board has not yet established any overarching sound policy, although it is under discussion.

As John said, the original complaints about noise at the Q came from people living on the south rim of Mission Valley, long before the current infill of development, and the original complainers have long since moved away. Although the stadium was originally designed as a multipurpose facility that included a motorsports roadcourse back in the '60s, after the first few SCCA regional and IMSA races were held there (with fully uncapped engines screaming all day), there were some unhappy residents who made enough noise to have the racing banned by the city council, to whom the Stadium Authority answers. It's all politics, according to the Golden Rule (you know which one I mean!)

It was only through negotiations with all the car clubs and the resulting compromises on sound issues that any racing events at all are allowed now. The SCCA is very serious about enforcing their regs (I have been bumped twice from their events over the years in different cars for registering merely 94 dB), and they would be outraged to hear that other clubs are not following the agreed-upon guidelines, since they would feel that continuing use of the stadium by all motorsports clubs would be jeopardized. It is not an issue we can "sweep under the rug" or ignore. Yes, background conditions have changed, and measurement of noise levels is an arcane, inexact art--they can deviate according to all sorts of variables, including instrumentation, atmospheric conditions, compounding, reflection, etc. But the risks are real, and there are actually more people living closer to the stadium now who could be offended and make life difficult for us. We can't afford to not make some sort of effort to control it and weed out the worst offenders. I don't think the readings posted earlier in this thread were accurate or representative (how a stock Boxster or Cayman EVER could have registered over 92dB escapes me--they sometimes sneak up on me when I'm cornerworking!) and it would be ridiculous to act on that kind of data, but we really must do something to show that we are serious about conforming or risk losing the venue even earlier than it will be disappearing on its own, which is inevitable when the Chargers leave. I do not think we should be kicking people out on a wholesale basis by any means, and I don't think it is a good idea to raise the issue with the stadium, or make anything but perhaps the most discreet inquiries about whether the restrictions might be eased, but having some kind of policy that we are demonstrably making an attempt to adhere to is essential, IMHO.

It is true that some events make more noise than us, and that racelegal.com is allowed to run after the 5:00PM limit that is applied to us. These events are perceived to have more redeeming social value (or profit margin) than ours, no doubt. This is no different than the sound sanctions being altered or lifted at Laguna Seca for specific events, such as the Indy Car and Grand Am races, the Historics, etc., while the club racers must run at 89 or 92 dB limits.

Anyone who would like to review the SCCA SDR Supplemental Regs, I have uploaded a PDF file of them to one of my websites. You can download it here: http://plowshare.mobi/SDSCCA2008_Supp_Reg.pdf Look at section 6, beginning on p. 19 to see what they do. Personally, I think they are way too strict, and I am not proposing that we adopt them.

TT
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby LUCKY DAVE on Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:00 am

Well, just to lighten the doom and gloom mood about sound, here's the results from my car yesterday:
full throttle - 80 db
applying the (squealing like a stuck pig) brakes - 84db

:lol: :lol: :lol:



btw,
In the world of National Championship motorcycle road racing, we learned something a long time (30 years) ago. Contrary to the then popular belief, super loud exhausts don't add an ounce of power, and usually subtract some. Don't take my word for it, try it yourself on a dyno. I fully understand there's a packaging problem trying to fit the required exhaust volume/length for a proper system on a 911, but that's a different issue.
Still, I'm with the preacher......no recent complaints - good! Don't draw attention to ourselves by making (however discrete) inquiries....good! Really loud cars - bad!
Tom, I get your point about conforming to the rules the rest of the car clubs follow, but I'm wondering if the "other" events haven't gotten a whole lot louder over the years with the technical advancement of concert PA systems and such, and how much of the total "annoyance" factor today is cars of any type.
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby John Straub on Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:06 am

The sound limit is really 93db, we as a club(PCASDR) many years ago decided to use 92db. And there was a time when we actually had a log book for events if a question ever came up with the stadium about noise.....but, that takes one more volunteer worker to do that again.

John
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby mark k on Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:01 am

Alright enough about the sound who got the yellow shirt?The POC infeild event at Fontana was awsome.It would be a great place for a PCA time-trial.Erik ran second overall and reset the lap record in V1 by a second. Also the drag racers at the stadium run almost no mufflers and many cars are well over 100db.We are far from the loudest club.
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby Dan Chambers on Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:12 am

mark k wrote:Alright enough about the sound who got the yellow shirt?The POC infeild event at Fontana was awsome.It would be a great place for a PCA time-trial.Erik ran second overall and reset the lap record in V1 by a second. Also the drag racers at the stadium run almost no mufflers and many cars are well over 100db.We are far from the loudest club.
Mark


Thread Kidnapped ....... Sean Malloy don's the yellow jersey in the (gulp)  :bowdown: 914-4. Way to go Sean and Herb in Team "914". Paul Young educates us on the nuance of the BRI. Nice job, Paul.

Congrat's to both top winners. :rockon:
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby pdy on Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:06 pm

Dan Chambers wrote:Paul Young educates us on the nuance of the BRI. Nice job, Paul.

Congrat's to both top winners. :rockon:


WTFO?
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Re: Sound Meter FUN!

Postby Dan Chambers on Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:08 pm

pdy wrote:
Dan Chambers wrote:Paul Young educates us on the nuance of the BRI. Nice job, Paul.

Congrat's to both top winners. :rockon:


WTFO?


That means you took #1 BRI, Amigo. At least that's what I remember. Congrats. :burnout:
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