2005 TT schedule complete w/Buttonwillow date

[JHPGT3]

Jack,
What would be the possibility of doing The Streets in both directions (preferably not at the same time ). This was my first time at The Streets and I really enjoyed CCW. Any interest out there in doing both CW and CCW in Jan?

[Steve Grosekemper]

I really don't understand all this trying to re-invent the wheel with our recient T/T events. The lunch time exercise sounds interesting to watch even if you don't want to join. But who is going to work corners while our normal corner workers are eating lunch? Will our insurance cover this twist in our event?

As for running two dufferent directions- That will cause a huge host of problems. CCW is much harder on all the cars. CW is the direction the track was designed to run and IMHO is much, much more fun. That would also mean two different entry and exit points, as well as resetting all the apex cones and corner worker stations.

I am sure I am forgetting serveral other logistical issues...But my vote is for CW and CW only. Lots of track time and maybe a show at lunch if we can make it happen.

And Thanks to Jack for such great events...

[jack miller]

Jack,
What would be the possibility of doing The Streets in both directions (preferably not at the same time ). This was my first time at The Streets and I really enjoyed CCW. Any interest out there in doing both CW and CCW in Jan?

Hey, how about we run CCW all weekend and then CW for official times only? Just kidding.

I like to sleep on the events of the first day, let my subconscious process them, and then be real ready for official timing. Switching directions would prevent that. So, sorry, one direction only per event at events I'm in charge of. The benefits of being chair.

January will be CW. Like Steve, I think track flows better that way and is a bit easier on the car, esp. brakes. I really like the uphill section after the straight. Also, I have not run the bowl CW so I'd like to experience that.

Steve, I'll check on insurance for lunch. Parade laps are usually not an issue without cornerworkers, but even low speed drifting is a different story. In the end, lunch will probably remain for eating.

[JHPGT3]

Bah Humbug!!!!
(I reluctantly agree)

[mnettles]

FYI: POC runs their skidpad and other school exercises without paid cornerworkers. Depending on what we did at the lunchtime exercises, we could probably scare up a couple of volunteers to cornerwork for an hour.....or for half of it at least....

mj

[kary]

Jack and All,

There is an interesting thread/Poll on the POC forum around a new timing format for the POC Short Track Series. Last time I looked the poll showed people favoring all times throughout a weekend as counting for your best time. There were other formats suggested such as what we did at Fontana this year and having an optional session for timed runs. At any rate it sounds like there are others who are thinking about changing formats as we have already discussed. Have we considered changing our format given the success of the Fontana format? (Oh, I hope this does not start a fire storm ) I liked the format of running for an entire session and would not mind running for best times all weekend frankly. Opinions?

[mnettles]

I was one of the people who voted against the new timing format with POC. Streets (in the no-bowl format) only has 1.5 (one at speed, one very slow) passing zones and as a result it's REALLY hard to find a clear lap there, especially with 25 cars in the run group. Other tracks with more passing opportunities and less cars would probably work better but if we're going to change the format at all I'd vote for the way Jack ran it at Fontana with a structured grid to minimize passing and one session to record times.

mj

[JHPGT3]

MJ has my vote for the same reasons!

[gulf911]

First of all, POC isn't changing to a new format on a whim. The reason is 120 cars is too many and some feel it would render more track time without having to use the time to run dedicated timed runs. At 100.00 more for our events and at just over 50 cars I do not see us having this problem anytime soon. It also appears that those who wish to still run timed runs will have to forgo one of their sessions. IMO this format is absurd. The whole point of practice is to PRACTICE. So we have someone who accidently pulls off a fast lap in practice, a single fast lap, while someone else is doing consistently faster lap times all day....who is faster really? During timed runs you are focused on the task at hand, putting together what you have learned throughout the weekend and not having to worry about somebody in front of you, or behind you. I am opposed to this format and am quite perplexed as to why it would even be suggested.

[kary]

First of all, POC isn't changing to a new format on a whim. The reason is 120 cars is too many and some feel it would render more track time without having to use the time to run dedicated timed runs. At 100.00 more for our events and at just over 50 cars I do not see us having this problem anytime soon. It also appears that those who wish to still run timed runs will have to forgo one of their sessions. IMO this format is absurd. The whole point of practice is to PRACTICE. So we have someone who accidently pulls off a fast lap in practice, a single fast lap, while someone else is doing consistently faster lap times all day....who is faster really? During timed runs you are focused on the task at hand, putting together what you have learned throughout the weekend and not having to worry about somebody in front of you, or behind you. I am opposed to this format and am quite perplexed as to why it would even be suggested.

I can only say that before people make a statement that they do not like something that they at least have tried it first.

I find that very few people ever really run all the sessions all weekend for one reason or another. They are tired, there is a car problem, they need to leave before the timed runs, they are running out of tires for the weekend, they are running out of brakes for the weekend, the list goes on and on and it happens every weekend we have driving events for many people, not just a few. Why do we continue to make people sit and wait for timed runs or have so many DNR's? So why would we not allow folks to post a time anytime over the weekend so they do not have to DNR? Why would we not want more track time, track time that is like club race qualifying wich would be the next steps for time trialer's? If folks like the old format, then so be it, go out and run 2.5 to 3 laps and come in during the final session of the weekend. We can still send cars out to accommodate this and can still accommodate other formats and needs of our membershhip. Why not?

I do agree with folks that say on certain tracks it will change the way time trials are run because those tracks are a bit tight and even crowded, even with our numbers. It only takes 1 or 2 cars to ruin a good lap. We can generally handle this by how we send cars out in the last session. However, at the speedway, maybe because most people quit early during the timed run session I was in, and the fact that there are many places to pass on that track without delay, it was a blast to keep turning faster and faster laps with the car and the driver completely focused and warmed up. I liked the extra track time this offered which amounts to another 25 minutes of track time that would have otherwise been lost.

[gulf911]

They are tired, there is a car problem, they need to leave before the timed runs, they are running out of tires for the weekend, they are running out of brakes for the weekend, the list goes on and on

With all of the above problems you just described you want more track time?? How fast do you think you'll go through tires, brakes etc. when you are trying for a fast lap over 2 days? There are some things that go without trying that logic sorts out. Such as deciding not to hit my brakes at the end of a straight to see what will happen...
Again, the POC change is from necessity not by demand. Don't get me wrong, Im all for change if it will help, however, I haven't heard anyone complain about track time or the format at ANY of our TT events, and I am not one to advocate change just for the sake of change.

[kary]

They are tired, there is a car problem, they need to leave before the timed runs, they are running out of tires for the weekend, they are running out of brakes for the weekend, the list goes on and on

With all of the above problems you just described you want more track time?? How fast do you think you'll go through tires, brakes etc. when you are trying for a fast lap over 2 days? There are some things that go without trying that logic sorts out. Such as deciding not to hit my brakes at the end of a straight to see what will happen...
Again, the POC change is from necessity not by demand. Don't get me wrong, Im all for change if it will help, however, I haven't heard anyone complain about track time or the format at ANY of our TT events, and I am not one to advocate change just for the sake of change.

Well done, you took that statement completely out of context and selected only that portion that fits your desire

What I was saying was there are a large portion of the drivers that do not actually run the timed runs. If they were allowed to post a time throughout the weekend they would have a time for the event. Check out the time trail database DNR's for the events. It is quite high in my opinion and would not be the case if we allowed people to use times throughout the weekend.


How fast do I go through tires? Quite a bit faster than most folks since I run fast laps at every session unless there is a tire pressure/temperature problem I am working out. So I do plan accordingly, but would hate to have run the entire weekend to find that I ran out of tires or had a failure late Sunday only to find I get 1 point for an event. That sucks in my opinion and given our weekend warrior status and limited budgets it only makes sense to allow people this ability to post a time some time throughout the weekend.

As a side note, I get quite irritated with folks that are just cruising along on Saturady and early Sunday while I am trying to maximize my "at speed" laps
They are simply in the way, but I make due and do not complain too much

Let the picking begin of these statements Not!

[Doug]

I think the present TT format works beautifully as is, and can think of a couple reasons to not adopt the "every lap counts" format.

1) Given a track with sufficient bite, best times often come in the morning when air temperature is low, i.e., the first session. Do we really want people pushing all-out then, possibly before they're fully re-acclimated to the track and/or their brains are fully up to speed?

2) The "red mist factor" might go up considerably and cloud judgment. Example: you've just done the fastest 9/10 of a lap in your life, you're on the tail of a slower car in a passing area just before start/finish, and you get no point-by (or a very late one). The temptation is to dive-bomb the corner against your better judgment for the glory of that low time.

Personally, I did a little SCCA racing in 1995-1996 but got out of it because of cost and the fact that I hated fixing bent sheet metal. If I bend something now, so be it, but I'd like to think I bent it because I exceeded my own limits and fell off the track, rather than being T-boned by some overzealous PCA'er trying too hard to shave a couple tenths! [pause to mop up vented spleen]

See you all at SOW! (or Other Car auto-x).

Doug
1989 944 S2

[Dan Chambers]

Oh, I hope this does not start a fire storm

Doh! No luck, Kary. Tossing gas on a fire brings more heat.

I felt okay about the Fontana method of timing, but preferred Buttonwillow's. At Fontana: Even though I was supposed to be in a group with fairly equal-timed drivers as myself, I found myself waiting through the corners behind some slower cornering drivers, and lifting down the straights for passing by other, faster-straight-ahead drivers (yes, the same driver's I'd have to wait for in the corners after they passed me on the straights. ) The overall effect at Fontana was slightly augmented, and altered times to adjust for others around me. At BW all I did was focus on the track, the car, and my level of fear ... I mean, skill. My times were markedly better/more consistant with the track to myself at BW . From a safety point of view, I think solo timed runs is a far safer way to go.

Just my $0.02

[Jad]

This hurts, but I agree completely with Dan. Sorry Kary, but I am one of those slow cruisers during practice on Saturday and Sunday. I am out there having fun, and learning sections of the track (you know like those amature F1 drivers do) instead of running 100% everywhere on every lap. I may pick 1 or 2 areas to push and learn the limits and cruise the rest of the track playing with lines etc at well under 100%. Can't remember the last time my best time of the weekend wasn't during timed runs despite often worse conditions due to heat or cold at the end of the day. I also think it is much harder on the equipment to run 100% all the time and definitely increases the risk of accidents and offs if you are pushing that hard all the time.

It may work for you, or maybe you would learn more if you worked up to speed instead of pushing so hard so much, but I see no advantage to changing the system and I think it moves us further from real racing. One session best time like Fontana would be ok, but not best time of the entire weekend.

Virtually all racing comes down to doing well when you have to, not getting an occasional lucky lap in the draft or pushing hard from the start in hopes of maximizing the conditions.

The other problem, many people only show up for Sunday, which would put them at a big disadvantage to those running under the conditions for both days and getting 3x as many 'tries' at a good lap.

My vote, don't change it, the system works great as is.