Fatal driving

[Bill Addy]

One night after reading about some similar stories a few years ago and awaking in the middle of the night in a panic because one of my son's was still out with friends and driving. That was when I chose to send my two boys (both drive Porsche's) to Driving Concepts Teen Car Control Clinic, put on by Judy Ray and a volunteer staff at Saddleback College. Their emphasis on CAR CONTROL-- NOT RACING. I was pleased with the program and plan to send my Daughter next.

Could we as a club could put together a program that does not emphasize AX, DE, TT or any other type of racing?

[kary]

Mike,
Happy to help...let me know what I can do.

[MTrotter]

[quote="ronaldtrotter"] Why not just give them a loaded revolver and ask them to play Russian Roulette.

Not every parent has revolvers like you do. Besides, you always said your parenting was different than others for a reason.
I picked being a good driver over the Russion Roulette... but it was nice having options! Thanks Dad!

[Kim Crosser]

I live in the Ranch and would be happy to help.
I am not sure that car control is really the issue here - alcohol was involved in the first crash (the driver is facing felony DUI charges) and the passenger killed in the second one was the only person not wearing a seat belt. Wearing seat belts and not drinking and driving would seem to be more important than car control...
That said, another possible source of a teen safe driving clinic would be AAA. They offer teen driving clinics and maybe they would be willing to provide us with their curriculum.
Assuming we put on a car control clinic, we clearly need to avoid any kind of "high-performance" flavor. Using a neutral, safe driving organization's curriculum could help avoid the tendency to show students "here's how you recover from a high-speed spin".

[John Straub]

I think the intentions for this type of thing is very admirable, but for liability reasons I think this should be done outside of SDR.


Just my 2 cents.

John

[Bill Behun]

Mike - I'd be glad to help.

3 thoughts:

I was told the club could not pass on our driving school material to another club last year due to potential liability reasons. The club will need to look into this if our material is to be used. Hopefully there is a way to deal with this.

We'd need to teach in such a way that the program is for safety and that the students shouldn't feel cocky/comfortable enough to think they can go out and screw around with the car and think they can handle it all and not get into a problem.

Growing up in snow country I thank my dad for teaching me how to threshold brake and get out of the start of a spin. They never taught that snow stuff in Driver Eduacation and it sure was handy to know. Nothing like experiencing some of these things in a safe environment so when the unexpected happens - you might not panic and actually avoid an accident.

[Michael Dolphin]

A strong suggestion. In order to make a real impact and minimize distractions from the intent of educating young people to the safety issues -- don' t use Porsches.

[SDGT3]

As I'm sure you all have to doubt read or seen in the news, there have been two fatal car wrecks in North County in the last 3 weeks involving teens. As some of you may not know, I volunteer for High School students at my church (Horizon RSF). Both wrecks have impacted kids I know and care about. And, especially with this most recent one, I can't help thinking that if the driver knew more about car control and vehicle dynamics, these students might still be alive. I know both drivers were doing a lot of things that were against the law and their parents rules (even one involving alcohol). But if they had been taught the lessons we teach in our PDS, they might have been able to better interpret the feedback from the car, and avoid the wreck altogether. Maybe. I'm not certain. But it is possible.

With that dramatic introduction, here's what I would like to do, and why I need you help. I'm thinking about, and beginning to research putting on a Clinic (similar to our PDS) for new drivers. For High School students that have a drivers license and have basic driving skills. But have not been taught how to control a car in adverse conditions. It would not be about teaching them performance driving. It would be about how to give proper inputs. And how to interpret and manager the cars feedback. At this point, I do not have a venue, nor a date, or even know if this is going to become a reality. But I wanted to put it out there and get your feedback.

I'm not asking the club, itself to do this (although this could be a HUGE community outreach if the club did get involved). But I would like to know if any of you PDS instructors out there would be willing to donate yet more of your time if I can get this thing off the ground? It would also be extremely helpful if the CDI's (or the club) would allow me to plagiarize the material they use in the PDS Friday Chalk Talk.

You in?

Mike,

A very noble effort your willing to undertake for young drivers -- the same drivers we ALL share the road with every single day.

As CDI for BMWCCA San Diego Chapter, I'd like to invite you out to our next Teen Street Survival School sponsored by Tire Rack to be held at Qualcomm's West Lot in the near future. We're just waiting for the stadium to release the 1st half of the 2010 dates to schedule our next one.

Perhaps I'm biased as I have young children that are not yet driving age, but I've found BMWCCA's position on being proactive and doing something for the youth of our country and asking for nothing in return to be unparalleled in the car club community. Although a dual member of PCA and BMW, I find the "what about the liability" argument akin to sticking our head in the sand and saying, "Not my problem", until it's your family member injured or killed on the road. BMWCCA takes care of our liability issues with a simple insurance certificate. No different from any other event we hold which has higher speeds, higher chances of accidents etc.

Our TSS last year sold out in a matter of days and there was a waiting list 2 pages long. There is absolutely NO emphasis on going fast, timing etc. In fact, we had an 18 wheeler come down and had each of the teens get up into the cab of the truck and surround the truck with cars and illustrate what, if anything the truck driver can see from his/her perspective.

It's all about awareness, car control etc. and each driver is encouraged to bring their daily driver, no matter if it's a SUV, wagon or sports car. The participates are all teens that were signed up by their parents. Naturally these teens don't want to wake up early on a Saturday morning and do this, but trust me, by the end of the day, they are all happy their parents cared enough to invest a day of their lives to perhaps saving their life.

[auxxcay]

Living in Carmel Valley I have been affected by both of these tragedies. With a daughter turning 13 in 3 weeks, I would love to help put something like this together for now and in the future. Count me in.

[Bill Behun]

Good comments Peter and Mike.

No Porsches and the 18 wheeler experience would be real good.

[Otto]

I would very much like to second Kim Crosser's comments and Peter Busalacchi's suggested program.

Above everything emphasis in such a program should start with an illustrated talk on the most basic safety issues which would be the avoidance of drugs and alcohol, having ALL occupants in the vehicle wearing seatbelts, and avoiding distractions (such as cell phones and texting). Excessive speed is the last factor, including street racing. From what we have seen, one or more of these factors are always present in fatal accidents, particularly when teens are involved.

Believe also that a proven, specifically-tailored teen safety driving course is what is needed and Peter's suggested program appears to be a good example of such a program.

At any rate, count me in Mike if there is anyway I can help.

[MikeD]

Thanks all for your comments and suggestions. And I especially appreciate the level interest in helping out. I will keep you all posted as I figure out more details.

[MikeD]

Mike,

A very noble effort your willing to undertake for young drivers -- the same drivers we ALL share the road with every single day.

As CDI for BMWCCA San Diego Chapter, I'd like to invite you out to our next Teen Street Survival School sponsored by Tire Rack to be held at Qualcomm's West Lot in the near future. We're just waiting for the stadium to release the 1st half of the 2010 dates to schedule our next one.

Perhaps I'm biased as I have young children that are not yet driving age, but I've found BMWCCA's position on being proactive and doing something for the youth of our country and asking for nothing in return to be unparalleled in the car club community. Although a dual member of PCA and BMW, I find the "what about the liability" argument akin to sticking our head in the sand and saying, "Not my problem", until it's your family member injured or killed on the road. BMWCCA takes care of our liability issues with a simple insurance certificate. No different from any other event we hold which has higher speeds, higher chances of accidents etc.

Our TSS last year sold out in a matter of days and there was a waiting list 2 pages long. There is absolutely NO emphasis on going fast, timing etc. In fact, we had an 18 wheeler come down and had each of the teens get up into the cab of the truck and surround the truck with cars and illustrate what, if anything the truck driver can see from his/her perspective.

It's all about awareness, car control etc. and each driver is encouraged to bring their daily driver, no matter if it's a SUV, wagon or sports car. The participates are all teens that were signed up by their parents. Naturally these teens don't want to wake up early on a Saturday morning and do this, but trust me, by the end of the day, they are all happy their parents cared enough to invest a day of their lives to perhaps saving their life.

Peter,

Thank you for that information. I would love to come check out the TSS. And even consider getting involved, even outside of what I am talking about here. Would you be the person I would talk with to get more details on TSS? Or should I go directly to Tire Rack? MR LIPP suggested I talk with Matthew Kogan in an earlier post, is he still a good resource for this subject?

Email me at miked@doughertytech.com if you would prefer to talk about this offline.

[SDGT3]

Mike,

A very noble effort your willing to undertake for young drivers -- the same drivers we ALL share the road with every single day.

As CDI for BMWCCA San Diego Chapter, I'd like to invite you out to our next Teen Street Survival School sponsored by Tire Rack to be held at Qualcomm's West Lot in the near future. We're just waiting for the stadium to release the 1st half of the 2010 dates to schedule our next one.

Perhaps I'm biased as I have young children that are not yet driving age, but I've found BMWCCA's position on being proactive and doing something for the youth of our country and asking for nothing in return to be unparalleled in the car club community. Although a dual member of PCA and BMW, I find the "what about the liability" argument akin to sticking our head in the sand and saying, "Not my problem", until it's your family member injured or killed on the road. BMWCCA takes care of our liability issues with a simple insurance certificate. No different from any other event we hold which has higher speeds, higher chances of accidents etc.

Our TSS last year sold out in a matter of days and there was a waiting list 2 pages long. There is absolutely NO emphasis on going fast, timing etc. In fact, we had an 18 wheeler come down and had each of the teens get up into the cab of the truck and surround the truck with cars and illustrate what, if anything the truck driver can see from his/her perspective.

It's all about awareness, car control etc. and each driver is encouraged to bring their daily driver, no matter if it's a SUV, wagon or sports car. The participates are all teens that were signed up by their parents. Naturally these teens don't want to wake up early on a Saturday morning and do this, but trust me, by the end of the day, they are all happy their parents cared enough to invest a day of their lives to perhaps saving their life.

Peter,

Thank you for that information. I would love to come check out the TSS. And even consider getting involved, even outside of what I am talking about here. Would you be the person I would talk with to get more details on TSS? Or should I go directly to Tire Rack? MR LIPP suggested I talk with Matthew Kogan in an earlier post, is he still a good resource for this subject?

Email me at miked@doughertytech.com if you would prefer to talk about this offline.

Mike,

I'm not familiar with you personally, but if your an instructor with PCA, I'd like you to be hands on in the next TSS rather than an observer. The teens are divided into 2 groups so that when one group is doing an exercise, the other is in a tent with classroom type theory. The tent instruction is similar to the way PCA had the National Instructor Certification set up a couple years ago at Qualcomm. Ted Drcar, a duel PCA and BMW member was an instructor at the last TSS and can vouch for the effectiveness of the program.

Gordon Anderson, a past president for BMWCCA is point of contact. I'll get you his info and send it to you privately in the e-mail you provided. I know Chuck S and others are familiar with Gordon as he has been in cooperation with PCASDR in the past and has borrowed some ideas from SDR as it relates to autocrosses and how to make them run more efficiently with hot corner worker change overs etc. I trust he would be happy to return the favor.

[MikeD]

Mike,

I'm not familiar with you personally, but if your an instructor with PCA, I'd like you to be hands on in the next TSS rather than an observer. The teens are divided into 2 groups so that when one group is doing an exercise, the other is in a tent with classroom type theory. The tent instruction is similar to the way PCA had the National Instructor Certification set up a couple years ago at Qualcomm. Ted Drcar, a duel PCA and BMW member was an instructor at the last TSS and can vouch for the effectiveness of the program.

Gordon Anderson, a past president for BMWCCA is point of contact. I'll get you his info and send it to you privately in the e-mail you provided. I know Chuck S and others are familiar with Gordon as he has been in cooperation with PCASDR in the past and has borrowed some ideas from SDR as it relates to autocrosses and how to make them run more efficiently with hot corner worker change overs etc. I trust he would be happy to return the favor.

Peter, I've not been very active in the club the past couple years. But I don't think they've revoked my instructor status. I might have to get my feet wet again before Jack would let me instruct at a TT. Although, I'm pretty sure they would let me instruct at a PDS or AX if I asked. I did not got through the PCA Certification program when they had it (can't even remember why).

I've look at the schedule on http://www.streetsurvival.org and do not see when the next course is at the Q. Can you tell me when it will be? Do you have any knowledge about the one on 12/6 at Cal. Speedway? I'll probably take a drive up there to observe. And would be happy to be hands on at the local event.