Corner Working Challenge!

[gulf911]

Well Dan, a good Instructor will take their student out to a corner and say: "watch this car.... turns in early..... brakes late....... doesn't have any track-out....... on the throttle very late. Not good. Now, watch this next car........ approach is way outside........brakes in a straight line...... brakes clean, and early to settle the car..... off the brakes and turns in smooth while gently applying throttle.... and look at the clean track-out. Very nicely done." So, your right, Dan A. The student may not know what is right or wrong; that's where the Instructor comes in.

Dan, actually these issues are 'learned' with the 'instructor' in the car, not at a corner.

Coveted Red Group?? The only reason I ran in Red was thats because you or the Trailer put me there becuase they asked me to instruct.

Ive done these events and worked corners since before you were a member Dan, and I was never informed I could pick a corner. I will assume you could because nobody else knew it was an option either.

If your don't buy the argument, it may have more to do with not wanting to work the corners than understand the principle of cornerworking as an instruction tool.

Actually it has more to do with I understand that the principle instruction is from inside the car, and the political aspects of paying cornerworkers.

Please do not try to tell me cornerworking was added as an instructional tool. Curt is on the Money, it will NEVER happen, but I'll keep bringing it up and back anyone else who cares to question it.

In the meantime your last statement is really the issue and very well put, everyone is an integral part of the whole process, and that I understand. Call a spade a spade and don't hide behind its an instructional tool.

Best Regards and wishes,
Dan

[Bob Gagnon]

I think a sense of community would be enhanced with paid corner workers. For example:

-Instructors could go out on the track at any time they desired and move from corner to corner with a student to instruct. Perhaps the truck could be scheduled to make rounds to do this.

-Almost 2 hours of "schmoozing time" would be added to whatever we wanted to do with it. We could look at other cars, talk to friends, talk to students, hey even eat lunch. If more time with friends instead of standing alone is not an improvement in community, I don't know what is!!!!

-The events would move along smoother, perhaps increasing track time-the main reason we are there.

-Perhaps more people would instruct and be happier to do it. Some frankly hate having to do two corner working sessions one of their own and one with a student.

-Those of us with health issues which preclude running around picking up cones wouldn't be forced to find a solution. This is also a safety issue.

[Jad]

Not to get in the middle of this, but remember we would have to give the cornerworkers a lunch break so the track would be shut down for an hour?

[ttweed]

Not to get in the middle of this, but remember we would have to give the cornerworkers a lunch break so the track would be shut down for an hour?

No, what we do, see, is we take everyone who hit too many cones or was black-flagged in the morning and we send them out to work corners at lunch....

TT- (who worked tech early AND worked corners with my student for 3 sessions last Sat.)

[Dan Chambers]

Dan A. Wrote:

"Dan, actually these issues are 'learned' with the 'instructor' in the car, not at a corner. "

Interesting. I say these issues are 'learned' with the 'instructor' in the car AND at a corner.

Just a different approach to teaching.

"Actually it has more to do with I understand that the principle instruction is from inside the car, and the political aspects of paying cornerworkers."

I happen to think the principal instruction is where the student learns and grasps the concepts the best: inside the car, at the corner during corner working, in the pits using a surrogate steering wheel, driving and having someone push on your knee, riding along with an expreienced driver. It is dependent upon the student and their intuitive learning capabilities. Using every available tool to teach is what I like to do.

Again, just a different approach to teaching.

As far as "political aspects of paying cornerworkers:" as the Autocross Chair for the last two years, member of the Board for a year, and Vice President for 2005, the political aspect of paying cornerworkers at autocrosses has completely eluded me. To the best of my knowledge, there is no political aspect to paying cornerworkers at any events, that I am aware of. (But, I guess I'm in a bit of a bubble about some of the politics of the club. ) If you know of any political aspects of paid corner workers at TT's, Autocrosses, Club Racing, I'm all ears.

[Curt]

Hey Dan C, I'm TOTALLY playing around in this thread. Don't take anything I've said to heart.

I think the MAIN problem many of us are having is that the Time Trials are just like an orgy of track time and then we try and go back and do an autocross. It's the same 12 hour day, but it's so much less track time. It can be frustrating. It's an entire day away from my family for me, so I wanna drive until I'm exhausted to make it worth it. This is MY problem and not the problem of an autocross's format. An autocross is what it is. My observation is that SDR does an autocross AS WELL AS YOU CAN DO AN AUTOCROSS.

Heck, as soon as you give us paid cornerworkers at an autocross, I'm going to wonder why in the he11 the club doesn't bring a transporter to my house the night before an event for my car and put me up in a nice hotel. I blame Jack for all this whining. The TT series and it's unbelievable amount of track time have really spoiled us.

[gulf911]

Dan,
I know you realize what I mean when I say 'primarily'. Sure, you can explain some things while standing at a corner, but c'mon where does the student learn the most?. There is a reason they use the term seat time, seat time, seat time.

I know you must also realize that without political reasons, we would have paid corner workers at the AX's. Honestly Dan, take a vote at any AX. Ask how many people want to cornerwork. See who votes to not pay for cornerworking. Jad put your hand down!

Take a look at Bobs comments.

Even though I beleive there is enough profit now for paid cornerworkers, I think you would have zero trouble having people chip in an extra $5 to use the time as Bob put it.


I'll go with Curt on this one, don't take anything said to heart. This is an issue argued since before you or I were in PCA and I would imagine will continue for a long time.
In closing Dan I would like to say Thank You, for your, and all others who contributed, and continue to contribute their time, without pay. It is truly appreciated.


Dan

[MikeD]

Well guys, the system isn't perfect. Sorry you're having such a bad time at the events......

Well, I'm not really sure what to say to this. I can't really tell if you just don't want to talk about it anymore or if you really are missing the point.

I have, and will continue to show up early and help setup the track. Not because it is going to get me out of corner working, because that is obviously not the case. But because I know it is necessary in order for the event to run smoothly.

[MikeD]

I also appreciate the efforts of you, the other chairs, and all voluteers.

I guess, possibly like Dan and Curt, I just figured we are all educated, mature adults (well maybe not Curt) and could discuss such things openly in an effort to make an already excellent event series even better.

[MikeD]

Ooops, sorry Curt. I forgot the smiley

[Curt]

I'm definitely not that mature, especially in this club. And don't tell my dad I'm not educated. He thinks those tuition checks went for school instead of new guitars. Shhhhhhhh

[martinreinhardt]

I agree 100% with Bob's ideas.

Why don't we have an online poll on this forum?

[Gary Burch]

First of all let me say that paid corner workers at an autocross is not something that is going to happen anytime soon. The pool of corner workers is very limited. Even more limited than the pool of corner workers we try to recruit at the autocrosses. I know nobody likes to corner work, but there's allot of things we don't like to do. Sometimes it's hot, sometimes cold, it's never comfortable and it's almost always boring. I know, because I've done it at the last 2 autocrosses because of the shortage of cornerworkers.

We are trying to come up with a way to limit the amount of time instructors spend out on the corners. One, is to have the students go out with the instructors first and then on their own during students corner work session. I am very grateful to Kim for taking this on. The cornerworking chair is a very tough job. I am sure Kim would enjoy the serenity of just working a corner and not worrying about tracking down some AWOL cornerworker, or threatening people over the p.a. system.

It basically is what it is. We all pitch in and make an event that in the end is good for the attendees and the club. If you have to cornerwork, you go out and do it. If you have to get there at 6:00 am to set up the track, you do it. If you have to chase people down to do their responsibility and corner work you do it.

There is no way to sugarcoat the cornerworking experience. As I said earlier, it is part of the autocross experience. You don't have to drive 4 hours to autocross and you don't have to get a motel room to autocross, and you also don't pay $300 to autocross. So to me a little cornerworking is not such a bad deal. Make the best of it. And stop whining.

[Bob Gagnon]

I have been a member of the PDASDR for 29 years and this has always been a issue.

The club has a lot of people who like to autocross and fewer who like to do the other activities such as rally, concours, social events, etc.

The autocross dollars support the other activities and nobody who is a recipient of those dollars wants to see them go away.

If it came to a vote, I'm pretty sure I know which way it would go.

Why can't we just admit this is the case, show where the dollars go on a monthly basis in the Witness (somewhere besides the minutes of the board meeting) and charge enough to support the non-autocross activities as well as paid corner workers.

Instead we come up with all kinds of excuses for the value of corner working, the duty of corner working, the difficulty with paid corner workers yada, yada, yada...

I think a little more candor would be healthy for the club.

It will be interesting to see what kind of club PCASDR will be if the Qualcomm lot dissappears in the future and there is no other autocross venue. The other non-autocross activities will have to support themselves at that point.

[ttweed]

First of all let me say that paid corner workers at an autocross is not something that is going to happen anytime soon. The pool of corner workers is very limited.

OK, excuse me for thinking outside the bun, here, but why don't we develop our own pool of cornerworkers? There must be a bunch of students who are semi-interested in motorsports and would like to earn a little money on weekends. If we could recruit a cadre of 20 or so, train them (maybe have a "Corner Worker College" concurrently with the PDS?) and then arrange to have at least 10 show up at each event, pay them, give them lunch, maybe sweeten the pot with a few rides in instructors cars, etc., couldn't that work?

Maybe you would still have to work out the details regarding the lunch break, as Jad mentioned, it would make the autox events less profitable (raise the entry $5 as has been suggested, maybe?), and it would change the nature of the cornerworker chair position (more pre-planning and arrangements to make, but less hassle the day of the event), but it might improve the quality of the events considerably for many people, as has been expressed.

I'm not sure how you would go about recruiting the kids, but it seems like the local schools might be a place to start. Maybe the Formula SAE teams at the local universities, or the auto shop students at the local high schools and community colleges? Maybe some sons and daughters of PCA members would be interested? It seems to me like you would be doing "outreach" for future PCA members at the same time, by exposing young people to the Club and the sport, they might just end up joining in as full-fledged members as they get older.

Back to your regular programming, now.

TT