Corner Working Challenge!

[Dan Chambers]

It will be interesting to see what kind of club PCASDR will be if the Qualcomm lot dissappears in the future and there is no other autocross venue. The other non-autocross activities will have to support themselves at that point.

It's closer than you think. 3 years. If the plans for the stadium re-development continue on track, 2007 will be the last year the pavement will be down. 2008 demolition/construction will most likely begin. The parking lot, as we know it, will go the way of the Mission Valley Raceway, the Riverside Raceway, the DoDo, the 944 production car .

So, it's not an 'If" ..... it's when. 2008. Mark your calendars.

Then, in 2008, we won't have to cornerwork at the Q. Party at Dan A's house? Curt's house? Lord knows we'll have plenty of free weekends . I'll most likely trade in my 944 for another longboard. Surf's up! Or maybe Curt will give me a good deal on another Martin or possibly a Taylor . I can rekindle my dream of being a professional jazz musician. What do you say, Curt?

My thanks, again, to Kim Crosser (and Dick Schroeder) for all the work they've done as Cornerworking Chairs. Kim, your continued efforts in improving the system is greatly appreciated.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year everyone!

[Greg Phillips]

OK I will try and answer the quesion of th original post:

We have 6 corner work sessions, with 3 run groups to each session

1st session, intructor group red works and the run groups are instructor white, student green and driver yellow

2nd session, instructor group white works and the run groups are driver orange, student blue and instructor red

3rd session, student blue works (by themselves) and run groups are driver yellow, student green and instructor white

4th session, student green works (by themselves) and run groups are driver yellow, student green and instructor white

5th session (timed) driver orange works and run groups are driver yellow, student green and instructor white

6th session (timed) driver yellow works and run groups are student blue, driver orange and instructor red

Advantages, the instructors work first with their students and isntruct them on corner working and so they don't have to work with their student to train and then do their own assignment. The instructors are also available to be with their students for timed runs if they are newbies and not supposed to be runnning solo. The instructor groups go out before their students so that they can see the track before they drive (although I prefer the reverse).

Disadvantages, the students and instructor groups are back to back so they will come off in one car and have to go directly to another car. With the size of the groups I don't think there will be a major problem, people can likely finish and change cars and they will still get their runs in, but it will be back to back.

Other benefits, instructors work in the cool of the morning, and if there are not enough workers in that run group, they can draw on one of the other groups to fill in and cover.
The driver groups will need to stay and help cover the entire event, rather than leaving after their timed runs.

I think this is a workable plan, and at least deserves a trial. There may not be a perfect solution, although with tweaking of the run groups you may have some advantages, but a the cost of confusion with the run groups changing order with each session. This scheme has only one change.

Greg

[Greg Phillips]

OK, everything looked fine except for the 4th session

It should be:
4th session, student green works(by themselves) and the run groups are driver orange, student blue and instructor red

Greg

[Kim Crosser]

To all -

First, let me apologize to those who showed up at events early to work and then still wound up corner working. (And a big thanks to those like Tom Comeau who came up and volunteered for corner working at every event, even though they worked each morning. )

We do make every effort to give early workers a "pass" from corner working. The challenge is worst in the Red run group (and sometimes the White), or when we have a smaller turnout (like 80-90 persons). When we need 10 (or 11) persons for corner working, and there are only 15 people in a group, and more than 5 of them worked in the morning (or are doing timing, announcing, etc.), there just aren't enough people left without asking some of the early workers to work corners. At almost every event this year, Dick Schroeder and I wound up running corner working all day and then corner working ourselves at most events.

Since the White and Red groups do the corner working during the timed runs, they need to be more experienced (calling in cones, off track in/out of sequence reports, resetting cones quicker, etc.). This means we cannot use the more junior drivers in these groups, but perhaps we could move some of the Orange group into the Red (and White) groups to allow for the usual shortage there.

Greg - I will run your scenario through my spreadsheet and check the conflicts. Thanks for responding to the original thread (what a concept!).

[Kim Crosser]

By the way, I fully support Dan Chambers' comments on using Corner Working as a teaching method.

If you are out with a student at a corner, there are lots of things that can be taught while standing there. Some of us actively engage the students in looking at how the different drivers take the corners. You may be "stuck" at a single corner, but usually you can see one or two adjacent ones, and even in a single corner you will have many opportunities to comment on proper setup, turn-in, apexing, and tracking out.

If you aren't discussing these with your students, they are missing a valuable opportunity to see the effects of early/late turn-ins, noticing when braking starts/ends, hearing when drivers are back on the gas, etc.

Every time I go around a corner and see Tim Comeau out there with a student, he is actively pointing out what I am doing (wrong or right).

If you are just out there to shoot the breeze and occasionally pick up a cone or two, the corner working sessions will seem longer and more boring. If you are trying to convey information on skills and techniques, you might find the sessions go much quicker.

p.s. I voted for paid corner workers myself on the poll. Chasing down people, threatening over the P.A., dealing with drivers who think they should be "exempt" for showing up early, tracking down "dead" radios, and trying to instruct as well isn't the most fun in the world. However, I have found it personally useful to observe how other drivers handle corners and tried to convey that to my students.

[MikeD]

...There is no way to sugarcoat the cornerworking experience...

Gary, I think you hit Dan A's nail on the head (or something like that). The whole point I think he was trying to make was that corner working is a necessary part of an Autocross. Quit blowing smoke up our you-know-what about it being this big educational tool, or some motivational tool to get other work done, or whatever else you want to try and whitewash it with.

The fact is corner working blows and the only benifit of having to do it is that we get to drive. Trying to make it sound cool by throwing in a bunch of other crap, is... well... crap!

[Gary Burch]

Mike you are right it blows, it also sux. The only problem is , it is a necessary evil. At least for now. If you want to drive at an ax, you probably will have to cornerwork.( I am sorry, but I still fail to grasp the hatred so many of you have towards it. I personally find it relaxing, maybe it's because I am usually so busy it seems like a break to be out on some Godforsaken corner)

I think you should use whatever motivationl tool it takes to get your a** out there. You never know you might learn something.

[gulf911]

I think the problem is IMHO, and why its brought up, it's really not a 'necessary' evil. If it was, we would have to work DE's. As the members we are supposed to be 'the club', which includes your opinion and voice also, you will find we would opt to pay for cornerworkers. Why not spend the profit from the AX on the people attending them? This seems simple in theory but I also understand there are other parts of the club that require money and can't support themselves, I just thought, why can't we try it? for half a season? There have been many benefits and ways to acheive this presented here , including a possible less stressful job for the cornerworking chair.

If you find the vast majority want it, and would even be willing to pay a small increase for it. And the answer is still no. There is some other underlying reason for it, so why not tell us. Sorry to be a PITA about this. I am done, for now, until somebody else asks how we can improve the cornerworking...

[Kim Crosser]

Ok - so everyone agrees that corner working isn't much fun.

The original challenge still stands - anyone besides Greg want to try to at least make an incremental improvement in HOW we run it?

Right now, we have a persistent problem with students and instructors being in cars when they are supposed to be reporting for corner working duty. Further, all students with whom I have talked (and most instructors) have stated that having the instructor drive the course first helped a lot.

So, go back to the first page of this diatribe, look at the preconditions, and see if you can come up with a better schedule for the run groups and corner working... Please...

[Mike]

my 2 cents..

Ok - so everyone agrees that corner working isn't much fun.

Agree not much fun and more importantly not the most effective means of teaching.
My learning at the permanent tracks has never suffered from not corner working. Imho learning to corner work while dodging cars or chasing cones is not a good environment for teaching driving skills.
AX at the Q track design could include safe observation locations around the track so the student and instructor could look at several corners during an hour walk or drive around, both would then gain knowledge of the full course.

If you had paid AX corner workers during their lunch break keep the track hot. A morning drivers meeting lotto from the pool of PCA drviers that are both non instuctor and non student could cover the short hour break for the paid workers. Don't stop for lunch, maybe then one practice session could have 5 laps?

The following assumes paid corner workers... perhaps someone could fit our current volunteer corner working requirement around the following sequence?

Here's concept for new sequence of run groups at an AX.

For the first session I think the student learns much more riding with the instructor before driving the track themselves. After riding with the instructor the student debrief will better prepare the student for his first lap on the track.

Before the students second session a full course walk or drive around while spending a few minutes at the pre coordinated observation locations will give the student a better overall view of the course. Spend time teaching the correct way to drive the entire track instead of how to be a good and safe corner worker.

For the second session again if the student rides of watches his instructor I think he will be better prepared for his second session.

Same for the timed runs, having the student watch more experienced drivers complete timed runs might help before sending the student out alone on their timed runs.

The student runs in the last timed runs and might hang around for the beer bust and as import loading the trailer...

[martinreinhardt]

If we won't be able to get paid corner workers for whatever reasons, is it possible to waive the cornerworking by the instructors (without student) ? This would also solve the problem of the instructor having to report for duty while still sitting in the students car

Instructing students is great, but cornerworking twice (once with the student and once by your self) is really no fun. I was considering quitting being an instructor, because I really enjoyed the camaraderie in the pits which I no longer have much time for.

[Dan Chambers]

If we won't be able to get paid corner workers for whatever reasons, is it possible to waive the cornerworking by the instructors (without student) ? This would also solve the problem of the instructor having to report for duty while still sitting in the students car

Instructing students is great, but cornerworking twice (once with the student and once by your self) is really no fun. I was considering quitting being an instructor, because I really enjoyed the comradery in the pits which I no longer have much time for.

Martin, if we go with the Instructor's cornerworking first, the chance of them working corners twice is greatly reduced. The student will have to work two, while the Instructors work once (unless the student is really having trouble with cornerworking.... then you might have to work twice.)

Kim, thanks for the backup in the notion that you can use C.W. as a teaching tool. I was beginning to think I was totally out on a limb solo with that idea.

Mike G. has a very interesting take on the idea: paid workers, and taking the student out on the track to view corners. Nice idea, Mike. Have you thought about working at the U.N.? I actually like the idea alot. Everyone wins.

Regardless of the future of Cornerworking being paid or not, I will take my student out for 3 run groups and have them observe the different drivers at a corner the student finds difficult. I'll most likely pick-up cones and help direct the Cornerworker there, too. Afterall, I'm there, I can help, too.

( I can just hear it now .... "don't give me Dan C. as Instructor! He'll make we work too hard!! The guy's psycho!!")

[Kim Crosser]

Since this thread has been totally hijacked for a "Why I hate cornerworking" rant, I have started a new thread to focus on the original intent of working on the existing process problems. (Called "Corner Working Process Improvement" coincidentally...)

By the way, before someone still recovering from an overdose of rancid eggnog jumps on me to point out that this thread isn't just a bunch of rants - I agree - there are a lot of good (and bad) points being made here about the use of paid corner workers.

I encourage you to continue with the discussion on paid vs. "volunteer" (er, drafted?) corner workers.

I also ask for help in finding the ultimate assignment/order of corner working sessions in the other thread - and that thread, please stick to the original topic - thanks!

[gulf911]

Sorry kim but your thread was NOT HIJACKED. You asked for a better solution for cornerworking and you recieved an answer, with detail on how it could be accomplished and why its a better system. And from the looks of the poll, quite a majority would like to try it. I take exception at your 'why I hate cornerworking' label. The question was why can't we have paid cornerworkers, and this was never answered satisfactorily. Sorry but 'its a learning tool' or its tradition still doesn't qualify, See Mike G's (thank you!) response for a good example.

[bryanearll]

Just back from vacation and so I will throw my newbie $0.02 in on corner working:

1) Paid corner workers: Are you kidding me? The club SHOULD NOT for liabilities sake, and probably COULD NOT obtain appropriate liability for "paid employees" or "self-employed" (wouldn't pass the State's test).

2) Look, wanna run your fast car fast, then work a corner for the "other guy". Working a corner for a couple of hours isn't so bad, you get to watch the cars run, admire the talent and cars, and soak in some sun.

3) A sheet of paper with corner working instructions or a bulletin board would cover all of the detail necessary to run a corner. Having an instructor WAS helpful at the driving school (compliments to Chuck) for the company and a "quiet time" introduction to AX.

4) That said, folks ought to be asked to attend the Driving School prior to running an AX. After the Driving School (or 1 AX) there is no need for an instructor to assist in manning a corner. The only confusion for the newbies was when to call in and how to call in a fault. "Two Cones", "DNF: Four Wheels Out", "926 dragging a cone". Come on, it's not that hard.

Bryan