GGR vs Z8 Rules Thought Experiment

[Steve Grosekemper]

Since the issue of weight came up. I think our rules overly penalize weight reduction. 4 points per hundred pounds? I think that is excessive.
During the last autocross I was only about one second faster without my student. If he weighed 200 lbs that should have been equal to 8 points!

Removal of weight, per 100 pounds (0-50lbs = 0-pts, 51-150lbs = 4-pts, 151-250 = 8-pts, 251-350 = 12-pts etc.) Curb weight is defined as the weight of the base car in the owner’s manual; ready to drive with all fluids (gas, oil, etc) full, tools, spare tire, etc in the car but no driver.

Of course it could be argued that what else could you do to gain a second.
The other debate is whether taking 100 pounds out of a 3000 pound car is equivalent to taking the same 100 pounds out of a 2000 pound car

Maybe we should be looking at your percentage weight loss?
Are the weight points excessive, or are other points too low (such as tire sizes)?
The goal of the Zone 7 system is to try and equalize the modifications, so that there is no obvious modification that is the best way to spend your points. If everyone agrees a modification is the best use of points, then that modification is undervalued. Ideally, increasing tire size, or softer tires, shorter ring & pinion or decreasing weight should all improve you the same amount if they are the same points.

That is currently not the situation in our rules.
Taking 6 tire points (wider & stickier) will make you much faster than the 6 points added non-stock ring & pinion or gears.
Taking 7 points for increased boost on your turbo is likely to make you much faster than 10 points for cam changes and non-stock heads
Greg

Greg I feel your pain...
But to what Turbo are you refering? I Otto know but I just can't place it?

[mrondeau]

Greg I feel your pain...
But to what Turbo are you refering? I Otto know but I just can't place it?

[Greg Phillips]

You guys all know were talking hypothetically here

Any resemblance to any car living or possibly in the past is purely coincidental.

Greg

[Otto]

Who is this Otto you are taking about ?

Greg, you can make your SC go faster if you are willing to spend the money to do it. I am positive Steve knows what to do to make it AT LEAST as fast as my car using the 40 points allowed in our class. It is all a question of money. If you don't believe me just check the SCs running at the front of the V3 Class at POC. Higher classes can't touch them. How about it Greg?

[ttweed]

The goal of the Zone 7 system is to try and equalize the modifications, so that there is no obvious modification that is the best way to spend your points.

I have said it before, Greg, but I'll do it again. I can see all the mod points in the Zone 7 rules for removal of weight, but where are the credits for adding weight by installing safety equipment, i.e. roll bars, rollcages, fire systems, etc.? It seems this is not encouraged at all in their ruleset. If you get points added for installing lighter body work, should you not get points credited back for installing a roll cage or bar? These kinds of upgrades should be encouraged, by my way of thinking, but seems to be absent in their "philosophy" of car prep and performance leveling.

Am I missing something?
TT

[JERRY B]

Sounds like they dont need roll bars How much trouble can you get into in 35 seconds?

[Greg Phillips]

Who is this Otto you are taking about ?

Greg, you can make your SC go faster if you are willing to spend the money to do it. I am positive Steve knows what to do to make it AT LEAST as fast as my car using the 40 points allowed in our class. It is all a question of money. If you don't believe me just check the SCs running at the front of the V3 Class at POC. Higher classes can't touch them. How about it Greg?

Otto
I am sure I could spend more money to make the car faster and stay within my 40 points of II.

I would prefer (and I think others) to not spend more money and be able to modify my car to an enjoyable point, but not to have to spend more and more money for smaller and smaller gains in performance.
The way our classes are, once you cross over from Stock to Performance or Performance to Improved, unless you are willing to spend and max out your performance points, it will be difficult to compete.

The more granular approach of Zone 7 classes allows you make smaller changes and stay in a competitive group.

Greg

[Greg Phillips]

The goal of the Zone 7 system is to try and equalize the modifications, so that there is no obvious modification that is the best way to spend your points.

I have said it before, Greg, but I'll do it again. I can see all the mod points in the Zone 7 rules for removal of weight, but where are the credits for adding weight by installing safety equipment, i.e. roll bars, rollcages, fire systems, etc.? It seems this is not encouraged at all in their ruleset. If you get points added for installing lighter body work, should you not get points credited back for installing a roll cage or bar? Thees kind of upgrades should be encouraged, by my way of thinking, but seems to be absent in their "philosophy" of car prep and performance leveling.

Am I missing something?
TT

No, I think you have noted a gap in their logic.
In other places they have allowed things like Tiptronic to have negative points to help equalize.
I agree it would be a good place to encourage safety.

Greg

[martinreinhardt]

GGR vs Z8 Rules

I have been thinking about this for some time now. But, personally I like the current Zone 8 Rules that we have better. Why change something that worked so many years? It's seems too complicated, just to autocross and for 30 cents trophies.

I just want to drive.

[ttweed]

How much trouble can you get into in 35 seconds?

...just to autocross...

The Zone 7 rules are also for Time Trials on big tracks, just as our Zone 8 rules are. My feeling is that the rules should encourage the installation of safety equipment, not discourage it, regardless of the venue.

TT

[Mmagus]

It's my understanding that our safety regs are some of the most strict in the club (compared nationwide). Since this is all I know it seems odd to me and I wonder why?

[Kim Crosser]

It's my understanding that our safety regs are some of the most strict in the club (compared nationwide).

I had heard similar comments, but after seeing some of the discussions from other regions, I don't think that is true. For example, some of the Eastern regions apparently have not only a "broomstick" rule for "open" cars, but require a 2" clearance between the broomstick and the top of the driver's helmet. That pretty much eliminates Boxsters and Cabs from DE/TT events without adding a full roll bar (unless you are under 5'6").
I have talked to other region members where the rules are more relaxed (or maybe they just don't obey the rules?), but I believe that Zone 8 is actually quite reasonable as to the balance between safety and fun.

[ChuckS]

It's my understanding that our safety regs are some of the most strict in the club (compared nationwide). Since this is all I know it seems odd to me and I wonder why?

Both my son and I and several close friends have participated in multiple marque and multiple organization events at many venues. Based on actual experience, PCA SDR has the most restrictive rules and enforcement that we know of (There easily could be others that we are not aware of). There are one or two that make their rules "sound" tough, but in practice, are nowhere near as restrictive. Many even alow and encourage self tech or for students, the instructor techs the car with the student. The SDR "experience" requirement does appear to be the most restrictive within PCA.

The open car issue is the most controversial among the many organizations with some banning them completely and others allowing them without restriction (including some PCA regions) and everything in between. Our experience has limited exposure to convertibles, except in vintage racing, so therefore is not included in my above statement, however I have instructed in both Boxsters and Cabs at other PCA events in other regions and have observed them in many PCA DE's.

[Mmagus]

It's my understanding that our safety regs are some of the most strict in the club (compared nationwide). Since this is all I know it seems odd to me and I wonder why?

I want to make it clear that I am NOT opposed to our regulations. What seems odd to me is that other regions and clubs are LESS restrictive. I would rather err on the side of caution. If I didn't want to keep Tuffy as close to stock as possible or juggle weight issues I would have a roll cage in him.

[tb911]

If I recall correctly, national only requires a helmet unless you have an open car, which then requires roll over protection (and factory rollover protection is fine for Boxster, 996 & 997 cabs).