Corner Working Poll for the new Year.

[MikeD]

With regards to high AX entry fees and paid corner workers a board meetings dicussion may go something like this...The club’s big picture is that it’s not just a Porsche AX club and the needs of the non income generating segments of the club need to be addresed as well. Makes sense too.

Mike, I agree with just about everything you said. It makes sense to use AX money for other areas of the club. But only as long as the AXers are happy with the value they are getting for an AX. In this case it does not appear as though that is true.

You can't tell and AXer they can't have X feature because their money, which would pay for X feature, is instead going to another event type within the club.

[gulf911]

Dave, Curt is correct, the fee was 35.00 five years ago and was 35.00 when I started with PCASDR 6 years ago. You have your labels wrong, If I was part of the Elite I would be part of the few who can make decisions. But I am part of the whole that makes up this club, including paying dues, working corners, Instructing, and helping with the SDR website.

Maybe you just ignore the smilies, but there was one after my '9' post. I have no idea who the 9 are, and it was not meant as a 'shut up' post.
In case you haven't seen the poll at the top of this post I am not alone, far from it. They just increased the AX fee to 40.00 and May be asked to go back to 35.00. Why not leave it at $40.00 and try Paid CW a few times. Mike and Curt are right on the money.
There is NO ANIMOSITY in any of my posts, maybe some emotion but no anger whatsoever. So Mikes question is an excellent one, if there was no extra cost would you like to try it Dave?

If you want to talk to one of the Elite , as you say, talk to Dan Chambers. He along with the other board members will make this decision, not you or I. They also donate their time for no pay and have to deal with difficult questions like these, where at times I am sure can be a thankless job. I respect and appreciate all the time they put into this club, because they are the ones their in the morning and allow us the time in our cars at a safe venue. But this does not mean I won't question or try to add what I , and apparently lots of others, feel is a little extra value from the profits.

And to Dan C. , cornerworking is not fun. If it was it wouldn't be called work. And I appreciate the few board members who call it what it is.

So to the people who voted in favor, thank you! and to those that voted against Thank you too! In an election this would be called a landslide.

[Curt]

Let me just say FOR gulf911 that when he refers to Dan C as an "Elite", he means it in a good way. Trust me, I think almost all of us feel this way about Dan C.

[gulf911]

Thanks Curt, but I just used elite as Dave's term not mine. And you are right its meant in a good way.

[pyro57]

Hi Porschephiles,

Yes I would be happy to have paid cornerworkers if there was no increase in fees but as I have found in other organizations, busineses and not to exclude the feds that you don't get sumpin for nuttin. Dont think that I dont appreciate what the volunteers do for the members I hope that I can do the same someday And I agree that the cost is far exceeded by the fun factor. I hope that this works out for the club but I also feel that it would be great if there was more participation from the silent majority and this might bring them out. Imagine 200 cars at an autocross, oops what am I saying, forget it, help, help, ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[martinreinhardt]

Dave,

Don't take it so seriously. It is all about trying to improve the Autox events. If it helps to get paid corner workers great. If not, so be it. But at least we tried.

We all agree that Dan C is doing a fantastic job at our club.

[Curt]

So we all agree that Dan C is doing a great job? Dan, go ahead and give yourself a 50% raise this year and take a Holiday bonus equivalent to 2 months of your salary as Vice President! You deserve it!

[Bob Gagnon]

I don't understand the connection between corner WATCHING and corner WORKING they not necessarily connected in their goals.

How do paid cornerworkers detract from a potential corner WATCHING experience for those that want to visit a corner and WATCH cars drive it

In fact if you don't spend any time picking up cones you can better concentrate on WATCHING the cars IMHO .

What is the value in picking up cones i.e corner WORKING

As I proposed before, the truck could be scheduled to make rounds every hour or so to move those who want go to the corner of their choice and WATCH.

I am not against WATCHING for those who wish to, I am against WORKING for those who do not wish to.

[John Straub]

So who is going to volunteer to put the paid corner worker deal together for each event and make sure it comes off:?:

[Gary Burch]

I wouldn't call 21 votes a landslide.

[gulf911]

All right Gary, but 70% is. Ask the same question at any AX and give them a choice, If you seriously think it wouldn't be overwhelmingly in favor of paid CW, well, I have some swamp land in Florida.....


Also I think it was mentioned earlier that the current cornerworker chair might be a good candidate for the job, and perhaps less stressfull overall.

[Jad]

OK, I finally have 5 minutes to jump in. First, I have not voted, so Dan I am not one of the 9 (yet). My initial feelings would be to try it, though some might choose the Oldsmobile, it won't hurt that much to try it.

On the other hand, I really think corner working is a good time to spend with your student. Even if you never look at the track, you are stuck there talking to them, usually about driving. This COULD happen in the pits, OR the instructor could get out and go hang out with others. Thus, I truly believe corner working can teach a lot in a lot of different ways. Everyone learns differently, some learn by doing, others by watching. May not work for you Dan A, but may be what Curt needs

I hate this arguement, but I do see this as a very slippery slope. This club is made by volunteers. About 30 people really run the club, a few more are suppose to help by corner working. Those always are complaining, though the 45 minutes or even 1.5 hours if you are Curt, are NOTHING compared to the time the board invest and many others. When I was CDI, we made several thousand per school, unless you pay me my normal hourly rate, in which case, the school lost money. So, is this the only paid position? You know timing can be hard, maybe pay them....president is very time consuming, so that can be hard to fill, ax chair, equipment chair? These positions really deserve pay more than corner working.

To sum up my confused thoughts, would the ax be more fun for most with paid corner workers, yes, I think so. Would some people learn less, yes, and would the difference between the volunteers and the users of the club be even greater, yes. Thus I haven't voted because I don't know what would really be best.

[Curt]

Hey Jad, wouldn't it be nice if you and Amy could both come to the autocross without having to dump Miles off with a babysitter? With paid cornerworkers you could do it! And... one of you wouldn't be in the car on the track while the other one is cornerworking, holding Miles while sprinting to pick up cones and trying to not get hit by flying chunks of asphalt or spinning cars. The flip side of that is, if Miles goes out and works corners a few times with you guys, he would learn so much that a college education would be redundant......

[gulf911]

Thank you Jad for bringing to light what I suspect is really the issue. And I hope Dan C. see's your post.

[Dan Chambers]

"Long Mike" - you raise some good points. I'll respond.

Hey Dano just another perspective.
Love everything you've done for the club, I just don't share your opinion on paid corner workers. If the board agreed to it perhaps your AX social and teaching concerns could still be achieved?

Yes, I'm sure I could make it work. That's the key, making it work the best with what tools you have.

1) Cornerworking is an integral part of the process that is an Autocross.

Why, you don’t have to stand in harms way to study the track.

Mike, no one is placed in a dangerous or hazardous place on the track. I'll agree that being in a corner is more risky than sitting in the pits, and watching the Paid Cornerworkers. Then again, driving at an A-X is more dangerous than getting out of bed in the morning. To be truly safe at an A-X, should you stay in bed all day?

Cornerworking is a fun event that is social by nature, and allows me (and others who might care) to stand on the track and watch one of the greatest feats of engineering speed around a course.

Corner working is inherently dangerous and should be avoided. Standing on track with only an orange vest and radio provides little protection. I find it anti social being isolated at a corner watching cars and chasing cones. Remember corner working is hard work, for some senior racers or those with marginal physical conditioning it is a bad experience. Dan you are in great physical condition, think of those that are not.

As to safety, see the previous paragraph.

You raise a good point about those with limited physical capabilities. We do, and always will make adjustments to those with physical needs: put them at the entrance gate, at start/finish, etc. The CW Chairs make every effort to comply with any limitations to work .... except maybe "unwillingness."

As to social vs. anti-social; well that's all about attitude. I've enjoyed meeting and getting to know my students durnig my cornerworking experiences with them. Greg Sharp, Rikki Alberson, Jackie Corwin, Jeff Blum. I've gotten to know these former-students of mine through working with them at corners, as much as anywhere else during the day. The process of socializing is, after all, like the rest of the day .... it is what you make it; good or bad. Attitude, that's the key.

Cornerworking is an important and useful tool in the bag-o-tricks of insightful, intelligent Instuctors who have the interest, and initiative to take every opportunity to teach their students how to improve their driving.

Imho corner working is an unhealthy disruption to teaching someone driving skills. You can find other safer less distracting places to watch and teach. This is not an attempt at sarcasm here but this mind set would rationalize standing in the center lane of the freeway to teach someone how to drive in the fast lane.

"Standing in the center lane?" Really, Mike. Are we getting a little carried away here? I'm not advocating strapping you to the left-front fender of the Dieter's car in order for you to see how Steve drives the course (... although that would be quite a ride, wouldn't it?) We are not advocating you stand out in the center of the course to corner-work, either. All locations ar carefully viewed by the safety team prior to sending out cars. Is it completely safe? I'll refere back to my comment about getting out of bed in the morning......

"Unhealthy disruption of teaching"? I'll use my own quote to re-emphasize my point: as an Instructor, a tool is what you make it. Cornerworking is an important and useful tool in the bag-o-tricks of insightful, intelligent Instuctors who have the interest, and initiative to take every opportunity to teach their students how to improve their driving.

Off to the gym, for 05 might need to get my corner worker pump on.
[/quote]
Thanks for your input, Mike. All opinions are welcome.