Corner Working Poll for the new Year.

[Mike]

Cool Dano, thanks for keeping the discussion constructive and meaningful. Good point about accomadating those that request it.
Bob G's comments were well taken too.
Best regards,
Mike

[Jad]

Since Curt brought up the subject how about paid baby sitters as well. I think daycare should be offered at the track. Maybe you would see more of us, Lewis, Bill and Tammy and many others. Forget paid cornerworkers, paid babysitters would really improve things

Plus, in 10 years or so, we may have a complete crew of unpaid corner workers, which is even better. Gotta plan ahead you know.

Happy New Year to all!

[Carl Scragg]

First of all, I’m uncomfortable with paying cornerworkers because I’d prefer to see PCASDR remain a volunteer organization. If we start replacing volunteer positions with paid positions, I don’t know where to draw the line. And we need only look at the impending bankruptcy of RaceLegal to see the financial impact of using lots of paid helpers.

An interesting aspect (perhaps the only interesting aspect) of being club treasurer is getting a close look at where our club’s money comes from and where it goes. Personally, I support more openness with regard to club finances, but I don’t feel that the internet is the appropriate place to be discussing details. But I do want to correct any misconception that we are knee-deep in $40 bills generated by excess AX profits. Although the AX events are very successful, the total profits for 2004 would not cover what we spent on equipment maintenance and improvements (and I’m not including the transponder system).

So should we try using paid cornerworkers? I think the answer requires some discussion of how we’re going to pay for the cornerworkers. I see a couple of obvious possibilities: (1) increasing AX fees (my estimate is that a $10 increase in fees will be required), (2) eliminating some significant club expenditures.

So as a board member who may be faced with voting on this issue, I would be more interested in a poll asking if you would be willing to pay an addition $10 per event to cover the cost of paid cornerworkers. Thanks, Carl

[gulf911]

Hi Carl,
I think in 2004 there were fewer ax's (only 6) which might attribute to the low funds.

Dan

[Carl Scragg]

Dan,

You're right that we scored only 6 AX's in 2004, but we had another 3 unscored (but still profitable) events -- 2 rainouts plus the "other-car" AX. In my estimates for 2005, I'm guessing that we'll have 10 events. Carl

[John Straub]

In case your interested. We have never had paid corner workers at a autocross. And a "elite or political agenda" have never had anything to do with it.

As you know we did have them for the DEs and we have had them for Time Trials starting many years ago at the Q. We even paid PCA members to work corners at some events.

For me, I don't like to instruct anymore because of working corners. Just not enough time. If we could keep the price the same, have paid corner workers and spend more time with the students, I would love it!

However there needs to be a voluteer to put it together for every event and have a back up system in place if the corner workers don't show.

[MikeD]

Hey Carl, I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not trying to be a smart @&& here. But are you saying that we should be an all volunteer club? Does that include QDEs, TTs and Club Races?

Jad, and others have raised the point that if you pay corner workers, suddenly you have to pay everyone else because none of the other work will get done. I beg to differ. To illustrate my point I would like to direct your attention to the TT series, and QDEs. We have paid corner workers for these events and still seem to get enough volunteers to run the events smoothly (timing and scoring, registration, management, etc). The Autocross series is not an island within the club, you can use these events as a model for how to make the Autocross series work with paid corner workers. In fact, I would be willing to bet that with paid corner workers you will draw more TTers and DEers back to the Q. And chances are good that these are the same guys and gals that are making the other events work so smoothly.

Just my $0.02

[Carl Scragg]

Mike, my preference for volunteerism over professionalism is just that -- a personal preference. But as a board member, I’m OK with voting to represent the membership if I’m convinced that the club members want to move in another direction.

My real point is that there are financial concerns that must be considered here. We’re facing a very large reduction in revenue in 2005 and we’ll have to be careful taking on new expenditures. If you would like more details on the club’s finances, please attend the board meeting next Wednesday evening.

So my question remains: Are the AX participants willing to pay for the cornerworkers? If not, how will this new expense be covered?

[gulf911]

Mike, my preference for volunteerism over professionalism is just that -- a personal preference. But as a board member, I’m OK with voting to represent the membership if I’m convinced that the club members want to move in another direction.

Thanks Carl, That was very refreshing to hear.

To be honest, I wasn't aware of the 2005 financial situation. As I live at least an hour away, and work 2 hours away from you, its almost impossible for me to get to a meeting during the week. How do I and other AXers vote? I would be willing to pay 5-10 additional, and not because I am lazy, but because I feel it has benefits beyond watching a corner. I don't know what the logistics are, but , maybe we don't have to have paid CW every event. Even a few for the year? See how it goes? If Dan C. and others fears that Voluteerism drops for the other posts we can certainly go back. Maybe a show of hands at an ax for those willing to pay a little extra. Obviously if the club can't afford it we can't do it.

Thank you Carl,
Dan

[ajackson]

Since the QDE's obviously have paid corner workers, maybe it would be a good idea to make another event format somewhere inbetween the QDE and a QAX. Paid corner workers, higher cost, same saftey requirements as a normal AX, and as much track time as possible. If the club puts on one event and it flops, then don't do it anymore. If it is a hit and everyone likes it, the old AX's can be phased out.

[harnishclan]

Can't we all just get along? Seriously though, has there been any though to compromise? How about adding a $10-15 fee for those who want to "opt out" of corner working and use that money to pay for some corner workers, and let us cheap bastards continue to volunteer to corner work? That way the people who are not comfortable doing this for whatever reason have a choice, but it would still keep costs down. Taking the poll percentage, roughly 70 precent would be paid corner workers. It could improve the whole experience for all. Because there really are some people who should not be running around cars just barely under control (and I am talking about when I am driving)!

[Kim Crosser]

As fair as the last suggestion sounded, it would be a nightmare to actually administer at an event. Either we have paid workers or we have "volunteer" workers - a mixture of the two isn't feasible.


Some comments on the use of paid workers at AX events vs. DE, TT, and other events:

Drivers in QDEs, TTs, etc., are more experienced and are also much better at driving within their limits. Thus, fewer cones getting knocked down and requiring resets, and there are fewer spins and other off-track excursions.
Further, QDE and TT tracks are more open in large areas, with limited use of extremely tight and/or tricky sections.

Drivers at a typical AX event range from experts to first-timers, and it is not unusual to have a few drivers "overdriving" their skill level (I have resembled that remark occasionally, myself).
Further, the AX tracks tend to be tighter and often include "learning" sections that may encourage hitting some cones when you get it wrong.

At the 2 QDE events I attended, there were 4-5 (maybe 6?) paid corner workers.
At the AX events, we typically need 9-10 corner workers in order to effectively cover the whole track (plus one at the gate). Because of the points nature of the timed runs, cone strikes must be tracked and cones reset quickly - something not required in a non-points DE event.

So, if we go with paid corner workers at an AX event, we need to plan on at least 9 (and maybe 10) paid workers - 50% to 80% more than at a DE.

I think we pay around $100 per corner worker for the day (anyone with real numbers, please feel free to correct me). If we need 9-10 corner workers, that is around $900-$1000 for the day. We can usually count on at least 90-100 AX participants, so $10 per registrant should just cover the cost.

Keep in mind also that corner working a DE or TT event inherently requires more experience and professionalism than at an AX.
Cars in the DE/TT events are lapping continuously, sometimes with no appreciable gaps between cars, the speeds are usually higher, and there is a significant possibility of two or more cars making contact at speed on the track (nearly impossible in an AX). Any resulting incidents are much more likely to need quick, professional response to minimize the potential for additional contacts, fire, injury, etc.
Further, DE/TT corner workers are expected to work multiple flags (how may AX'ers have even heard of a Blue flag?) and act as surrogate safety marshals on the track.

I fully understand the rationale for hiring professional corner workers for DE/TT events, and why similar reasons don't justify hiring them for AX events.


Perhaps this survey should be re-run with the question being:

Are you willing to pay $10-15 more for each AX event for someone else to work corners for you?

[Jackie C]

Well, just got back from a vacation to discover a FEW more posts on this thread. I like all the responses because it gives you a good opportunity to see different opinions without a screaming match. I agree with Dan C in regard to learning a lot at corners. His enthusiasm on my corner helped me enjoy AX and inspired me to become an instructor. However, now that I am an instructor, I would prefer to work corners once instead of twice each AX. I do think this is part of what might be instigating paid corner workers. What about some sort of reprieve for instructors from working corners twice? Would that alleviate some of the problem and inspire more instructors to come out? As for comments regarding the babysitting issue here is my personal solution. My daughter has attended 2 years of AX and will be 16 at the end of this year. She recently learned to work corners and absolutely loves it. She IS learning a lot about driving, even before she gets behind the wheel and although sometimes when a driver takes out several cones on her corner, it can be unnerving. At any rate, she's happy to learn, is where I can keep an eye on her, and will be happy to work anyone's corner for $5. I agree regarding praise for Dan's hard work, but there are several active volunteers worth recognizing at the AXs. Not only do they give their time and sweat, they encourage and create a positive atmosphere that might otherwise be intimidating to a new AX. (Are these the elite, because so far, I am oblivious to the politics.) Thanks to Cecilia, Martha, Carl, Gary, Dan, Kim, Dave, Tom and many more-I think I hear the orchestra....

[Denise Dente]

I think many instructors would agree that running in two sessions and working corners for two sessions (theirs & students) makes for a long day with very little time to socialize or relax. Studying corners can be valuable. With paid corner workers students/instructors have the freedom to use their time as they see fit. Some will choice to walk from corner to corner while others may not.

Because of our new rule (students need an instructor for their first 3 autocrosses) we are often short of instuctors and some must double up. I feel it's important not to over burden our very valuable group of volunteer instructors. Getting and keep instructors is difficult enough.

Denise

[Kim Crosser]

Perhaps we haven't made something obvious - there is no need for the instructors to remain out at a corner for all three run groups.

Once an instructor is satisfied that their student understands the safety principles and the mechanics of corner working, the instructor could come in from the track. In my experience, students catch on to this within 20-30 minutes (one run group), so instructors could generally come off the track during the second run group.

We could try having a mid-session "pickup round" - take the truck out and pick up the instructors who are farther out on the track mid-way thru the second run group. Instructors can walk in from most points in the SE and NE lots, and from the closer corners in the West lot.

(n.b., I think Dan Chambers, I, and some of the others who actually do believe in learning/teaching out on the corners would still choose to remain out there through the sessions.)

Suggestion to resolve this issue -

1. Treasurer and AX Chair (2004 or 2005?) determine expected cost of paid corner workers per event and what registration fee adjustment would be required to cover the costs.
2. Post a different survey on the forum -
"Would you be willing to pay $xx more per AX to use paid corner workers?". Allow a reasonable time for inputs (2 weeks?).
3. If the response in favor is above <xx>% (Board/AX Chair sets the threshold), then we should try it. I think this needs to be at least 66%, and maybe 75-80%.

Since about 1/3 of the respondents to the current survey responded negatively (with no $$ amount stated), I suspect it will be difficult to get an overwhelming majority in favor once the cost is included.