DE Instruction?

[Gary Burch]

So the DE program is intended for novice drivers? I was thinking of doing some of the TT events this year, but using the DE route, to save money, time, and tires. Will there be run groups for reasonably qualified drivers?

[John Straub]

Mark Rondeau has stepped in to help with the DE part of these events...I have lots of faith in what Mark will do.

John

[kleggo]

As it was suggested I start a new thread....

What are the thoughts about instructing a new driver at a big track DE? Is it fine, as that is what everybody else does, or unsafe as that is not the way our system works or how our instructors have been taught to teach?

i recently attended and instructed at the GPX Pomona DE event. True it was not a "big track" and it was merely a parking lot full of cones, but it was a large layout that permitted speeds exceeding 100mph. You could get hurt there too.

i was initially shocked to find out that my student had ZERO AX experience and his only "performance driving experience" was ~ 20 minutes @ a no passing day @ SOW.
I told him i was concerned about him doing this event and we discussed his and my expectations for nearly 20 minutes before even getting in the car.
I made it clear that we should start mellow then come in to discuss and plan for the next run session.
He turned out to be bright / alert / aware / and safe. He never put us in a situation where i felt threatened by having no "outs" in case things went wrong.
Of course he still had things to work on, but i told Skip that he should be welcomed back to other events.
GPX also has a ground school that he was required to attend.

Craig

To directly answer your question Jad, i think that instructing a new driver at a big track DE is NOT optimal, but can be controlled with proper instruction and guidance.
The instructor has to be very alert and not at all complacent in order to shut things down when required.
it's almost more of a question, "are our instructors well-trained enough to go down this path?"

[325racer]

This is a topic that I have mentioned to a few folks already or see a Gap in the PCA program, where we can work closely with BMW CCA. (Ok, I'm biased as I'm primarily a BMW CCA member, but also occasionally attend PCA events)

From what I see in the 2 clubs programs is gaps in both programs which can be filled by the other club.

Currently PCA has your existing DE program, which is primarily based in parking lots, etc at slower speeds, you then jump to basically open tracking and Time Trial.

BMW CCA DE program does have a Car Control Clinic, held only 1 or 2 times a year ( basically just braking, lane change, etc, not Lapping) then we go straight to Highly instructed Big Track DE events. We carry a 2 to 1 Student to Instructor ratio, with much classroom at these events. From there we go straight to Club Racing.

For those that attended Chuckwalla, I hope you will agree that the BMW drivers all had very good car control and track Etiquite, which was all driven by our DE program.

With the current Economic times, my solution would be that instead of PCA trying to reinvent and learn how to do a DE program on the level of BMW CCA, that we work closer to cross promote events.

BMW could push those folks to attend the Parking lot DE's that PCA does at the early stages, PCA can push those "Graduates" to attend BMW CCA big track DE's. Then BMW can push those "Graduates" to PCA Time Trials. After TT then folks can move to their home club for Racing or Instructing.

As some background, a BMW CCA DE is a very developed program with an instructor pool of nearly 200, driving various types of cars. These events also run in a way that the Instructors do not pay, but they are also only allowed to drive when they have a session they are not instructing in. At that point they are only allowed on track with either a student, another instructor or some passenger. This is done for reasons, 1 with a passenger our instructors will not go out trying to do anything stupid, and 2nd it is always educational for someone, whether that be a student, other instructor or someone "thinking" about attending in the future.

If PCA would officially like to work on this sort of partnership, please let me know and I can be a point of contact between the 2 clubs to begin discussions.

[Robert]

So the DE program is intended for novice drivers? I was thinking of doing some of the TT events this year, but using the DE route, to save money, time, and tires. Will there be run groups for reasonably qualified drivers?

The number of DE run groups (and number of TT run groups) will be determined individually for each event based upon supply and demand. Drivers who are TT-eligible should sign up for their preferred format, be it TT or DE. Drivers who are not TT-eligible should obviously sign up for the DE. If there's not enough demand for a run group suited to a TT-eligible driver's preference, the driver will be notified and can then decide if they'd like to take part in the the other alternative(s) that are available. If they decide not to take part, it's no charge, no cancellation fees, no waiting for refunds, nothing. It's kind of like the lottery though, you can't win if you don't play. So if you want to run, you have to sign up, and do it early so that demand for a particular configuration becomes apparent and thus materializes. If you take a wait-and-see approach, it's very possible that what you want won't happen.

That said, the comment above about saving money, time, and tires via DE (relative to TT) indicates to me that there may be confusion as to how an experienced driver DE group would differ from a TT group during practice sessions. If you can provide more info on the theory behind that comment, perhaps I can fill in some missing pieces?

[Gary Burch]

The number of DE run groups (and number of TT run groups) will be determined individually for each event based upon supply and demand. Drivers who are TT-eligible should sign up for their preferred format, be it TT or DE. Drivers who are not TT-eligible should obviously sign up for the DE. If there's not enough demand for a run group suited to a TT-eligible driver's preference, the driver will be notified and can then decide if they'd like to take part in the the other alternative(s) that are available. If they decide not to take part, it's no charge, no cancellation fees, no waiting for refunds, nothing. It's kind of like the lottery though, you can't win if you don't play. So if you want to run, you have to sign up, and do it early so that demand for a particular configuration becomes apparent and thus materializes. If you take a wait-and-see approach, it's very possible that what you want won't happen.

That said, the comment above about saving money, time, and tires via DE (relative to TT) indicates to me that there may be confusion as to how an experienced driver DE group would differ from a TT group during practice sessions. If you can provide more info on the theory behind that comment, perhaps I can fill in some missing pieces?

So, if possible, what I should do is sign up for a one day TT experience and not list as a DE entrant. This would avoid any confusion, at least on my part.

[Robert]

So, if possible, what I should do is sign up for a one day TT experience and not list as a DE entrant. This would avoid any confusion, at least on my part.

That is absolutely possible.

[Don Middleton]

...That is absolutely possible.

Robert, what is possible? Perhaps you could post your planned WW article on the Forum, rather than wait for the coming month's publication.

For example, and in keeping with Gary's concerns, if running in a TT group on Saturday, with no plans for an "official" timed run on Sunday, is there really a need to have a transponder? If the transponder is mandated for running in a TT group, will there be a DE run group for TT-qualified attendees who want to save $$ by running one-day without transponder rental or Sunday's timed run fee?

[Robert]

Robert, what is possible?

Gary asked if it was possible to sign up for a single day of TT. For the 2011 season it will be possible to sign up for all SDR-managed events on a daily basis, if desired.

For example, and in keeping with Gary's concerns, if running in a TT group on Saturday, with no plans for an "official" timed run on Sunday, is there really a need to have a transponder? If the transponder is mandated for running in a TT group, will there be a DE run group for TT-qualified attendees who want to save $$ by running one-day without transponder rental or Sunday's timed run fee?

The policy for TT run groups continues to be that transponders are required. The TT team uses the collected data to ensure that everyone is in an appropriate run group, to identify those that may need some help, and to maximize safety. I hate to sound like a broken record, but the number of DE run groups and number of TT run groups will be determined individually for each event based upon supply and demand. Sign up for how you'd like to run and based on that we will determine what run groups we'll have in what formats.

I apologize if, after reading the pages on motorsportreg and what's been posted here there's still confusion. There's no intent to be mysterious. Sign up now, which will let me know who you are, what kind of car you want to drive, what your experience is, what format you'd like to drive in, etc., and we'll take it from there. We always send out a detailed letter for each event that contains the schedule (and tons of other info), so the various run groups/formats will be well known ahead of time. The key, in order to maximize your chances of getting your desired selections, is to sign up ASAP.

Perhaps you could post your planned WW article on the Forum, rather than wait for the coming month's publication.

The Witness article, which is limited to a single page, can't go into operational details that cover the large number of what-if scenarios. Most of the information contained in the article is posted on the Streets motorsportreg.com page (http://msreg.us/SOW0111). However, once the article is accepted and I have a final copy of the print version I will post it.

[Dave Diamond]

2-cents worth from a non-instructor and relatively new track person (6 events, no "big tracks," only little ones like Fontana infield, North Island, Chuckwalla, Pomona): How about just doing the first run session or two with complete novices like the DE school at Qualcomm this year? Some passing exercises, side-by-side driving at low speed, etc. If everybody in the complete-novice group (if the numbers work out) does this first time out (or two), they get a chance to see & feel the track, practice paying attention to the instructor, watching mirrors. If somebody won't listen, instructor will know it before you speed up. Personally it would have scared me as a student to be in traffic with no prior PDS and AX experience -- especially if I knew everybody else was at the same level!

[Mike]

I'm shopping single day track days so I checked here first.
SOW Saturday would be $195 + $30 transponder + $10 for the Z8 book = $235 for a Saturday at SOW.
In these tough times with other track groups competing for drivers, a $30 reduction for a transponder (I don't want) would be a 15% gesture in the correct direction.
I mean come on we just did Chuckwalla with many first time drivers and transponders were not required.
It can be done and could mean one or two more entries.
This lemonade stand will have to rent a lot of transponders to make that up.

The SDR PCA single day pricing just can't compete with the GPX day way from work.
On topic, I like the way the BMW club rewards it instructors.
Sign me still shopping affordable single track days.

[944Greg]

Mike,

As far as pricing for a single day goes, Las Vegas region is having a DE/Open Track Day at Spring Mountain this weekend. The price is $200 advanced registration, $225 at the track registration, for a single day without transponder. I don't know what they charge for transponders.

As I understand it, weekday track rental rates are lower than their weekend rate, so an event at a track can have lower entry fees on a weekday. A couple of years ago we had a time trial weekend of 2 days (Fri and Sat) at Streets, and 1 day (Sun) at Big Willow, and we had a weekday DE at Auto Club Speedway infield.

[gulf911]

The Witness article, which is limited to a single page, can't go into operational details that cover the large number of what-if scenarios.

I think thats why we are asking the questions here?? If its not mysterious then how about answering the questions relative to your proposed pricing and why you are forcing a transponder? I can see 'maybe' for a TT person that hasnt been to the track before , but seriously you have plenty of data on times for 95% OF All TT entrants. If you dont then thats why there should be an entry thats asks in reg about your times at certain tracks. This 'sign up now and we'll tell you later , dont look behind the curtain stuff doesnt sit right...

[pecivil]

2nd Matt's comments about maybe mixing the 2 clubs programs. I run in both clubs too and the BMW DE events are definitely oriented towards limited to no experience students with "lots" of instructor control compaired to PCA events and full on classroom sessions between run groups for everybody from fastest run group on down. There low emphasis on "going fast" but a high emphasis on "education". It is great to come off your session and go to the classroom with everybody from your run group and all the instructors to talk over what went on and what to do better.

On the other hand there is definitely a group of more experienced BMW drivers who would probably relish a chance to go to TT type events where they can get lap times and compete but have no plans to club race. The BMW club DE's forbid any timing, not even using your own system in your car, which makes it hard to know if you are improving as a driver and causes some frustration with the BMW DE program (for me at least . I think now they are experimenting with timing the top run group? Plus PCA has 4~6 TT events per year and BMW has usually 1 or 2 DE's per year so there is much more opportunity for seat time with PCA. PCA TT events could conceivable pick up maybe a good dozen or so participants from BMW club in both DE and TT "mode". Maybe that would make Roberts job of trying to mesh each group much easier by adding enough drivers to make it work? Just a thought.

[Mike]

Mike,
As far as pricing for a single day goes, Las Vegas region is having a DE/Open Track Day at Spring Mountain this weekend.

pass me now, thanks Greg.
edits of passing at SOW CW.
http://vimeo.com/15809245