Jan. Streets of Willow Springs reg available

[SDGT3]

Don,
It would seem reasonable to anticipate changes after the first TT of the year to tweek what was actually planned vs. what happened when it was executed or attemted to be executed. But as the questions above indicate, there is some confusion on what exactly is the price for certain things. I'm sure you and I would agree that when you go to a restaurant, we'd like the prices to be clearly displayed and know what you are ordering. If the price has gone up for a particular menu item, then we make the decision to order that item or not.

Don from your post, Dan. A., Mike, it appears people will be picking what items they want off the menu and it appears the actual numbers of people that will opt to pay for the $25 two lap timed runs is going down vs. going up which will dilute the competition aspect of time trials all together.

[Robert]

whats the justification for the fee? Why should the transponder be mandatory when they have the info already? Like I said before you change the pricing to be more in line with 'actual' costs by venue and you will get more attendees, rather than using DE entrants for that purpose. Your silence is deafening...

OK, now that the program is Board sanctioned I'll try to explain about pricing. It's pretty simple...we lost money last year. We need to at least break even. Track registration fees are inelastic. Raising the price slightly helps increase the chance of covering the deficit. Lowering it increases the chance of losing more money and shutting down the program. A consistent price for each event of the season motivates repeat customers. Tiered pricing based upon the venue yields a season gross that is lower. Track time for DE'ers and TT'ers will be equal, thus each format costs the same. Timed Runs are now a separate fee because DE'ers won't be participating in them nor will TT'ers who elect to only participate in practice.

The bulk of private comments I've received indicate that people appreciate the pricing flexibility (the ability to not have to pay for things that the driver doesn't want). There's no way to please everybody, though that's certainly the goal. The marginal participant who wants to run one event and will do so if the price is uneconomic for the Club is probably unpleasable, try as I might.

[Robert]

However, I think a menu of options and cost per item would be helpful at this point. I would really hate to pay more and get less track time than in the past. Hopefully this new system does not mean just that, but in the meantime there will be plenty of questions. For example,

1. I'd like to sign up for the Streets event to test and tune a race car and having a transponder with lap times after each session is incredibly important to determine what is working and what is not for changes made to the car between the sessions. Last year we were not able to see our times after each session, this year we will ( ). Is the additional $25 charge to run TT just for the timed runs at the end of Sunday OR is it to have your times displayed for Sat and/or Sun?

2. If we all sign up now with no penalty to cancel later in order to establish run groups, what happens when people begin to cancel in numbers because they do not like the run groups in which they have been placed? Are the run groups then redone to reflect the actual numbers that intend to run effectively changing the essence of the run groups or number of groups? If so, when will the new run groups be published?

3. When is the last day to cancel without penalty?

4. If one does not want to run with a transponder, is he or she automatically placed in a DE group rather than a TT group? In other words, is there any chance of having experienced drivers in the same run group with novice drivers because of their choice to run a transponder or not?

The pricing is on the motorsportreg.com registration page. Just go to the site, http://msreg.us/SOW0111, read the info on pages 1 and 2, then proceed as if to register. The pricing of each item, which is much more of a menu to pick and choose from than in the past, is clearly displayed. If you don't click to confirm at the bottom of the page, you can look without registering.

1. The $25 charge for Timed Runs is exactly that...a charge for Timed Runs on Sunday afternoon. All TT'ers will have all practice times posted after each session whether they pay for and participate in Timed Runs or not.

2. The proposed scenario (those canceling because they do not like the run group format) is anticipatable so this will not be a problem if people sign up for their actual preference. The plan is to announce the run groups as soon as it's clear how the demand is stacking up. Certainly by a week prior to the event; sooner if people sign up more quickly.

3. See the motorsportreg site for the complete cancellation policy.

4. No (to the "in other words" wording of the question).

[gulf911]

It is apparent that the powers that be could care less about answering any pricing questions, and they will not even let us know what the justification is for the charge to run 2 timed laps, which I do not understand.
FYI I just saw another group that will be at streets in Jan (sat and sun) of next year and charge $105/day and $20 if you want to be timed. It doesn't have to cost $345 if others do it for $210. If it is non profit then where is the extra money going? Subsidizing future events? New timing system? Savings for a rainy day? Is it a secret? If not then why not simply answer the question Robert?
I will say it again if the break even for the track is 19 cars at the new rate please explain what happens when 40 cars show up.

I am only a single voice and probably why there will be no answers. I am open to anyone explaining the numbers as I see them.

[mrondeau]

Dan,

The costs associated with a track event for us are much more than just track rental. We have corner workers, emergency personnel with an ambulance, equipment costs and upkeep and insurance for every event that has to be paid for. The pricing is set so that we need about 45+/- at every event to break even. Some of the tracks require even more. In my time on the board, the Time Trials have struggled to break even each year. Robert and Jack are changing the format to make it easier for some to join us without severely affecting the amount of driving time that we are used to. The extra cost is minimal in my opinion and if it helps keep the TT series alive, then that's what it takes. In case you haven't noticed, the club has tightened its collective belt and trimmed away quite a few of the "luxury" events that we used to do. Every event has to at least try to break even. The time trial pricing is an attempt to do just that.

By the way, I love your work in the "Hamsterdam" video. I didn't know you could play drums.

[rshon]

Many folks could do a better job of explaining things to others who haven't been involved in all the details. It is always a better way to introduce change. As I'm sure the TT/DE team and the board (of directors) know all the issues and proposed solutions and discussions, I'm equally sure that most of the rest of us do not.

When people who care deeply about something detect a "change in their cage", it does pay to walk them through the problems, goals, assumptions, thought process, rationale, etc. Many of these concerned folks are on this board, hence the request for such a "walk" (e.g., "Because the club is losing money on TT [and other] events [which is a big problem] AND we want to increase participation in all events in general, SO we are proposing to make the following changes, WHICH should have the following effect...").

To that point, besides the added costs Mark alludes to, I believe that it has been the club's policy for some time to level-out the costs of all the Time Trials even though the costs of the various tracks is quite variable (and is also different, depending upon the day of the week). I think Streets is probably one of the cheapest tracks we go to. This arrangement may or may not be ideal for a given participant, but the way this club works is the various committees make proposals and/or recommendations, and the board of directors either approve or does not. To their credit, I think the committees of this club make a concerted effort to listen to the comments made on this board, but they also can't allow everyone to "grab the steering wheel".

I defer to those who actually make the program work every year to fill out the story...

[gulf911]

Dan,

The costs associated with a track event for us are much more than just track rental. We have corner workers, emergency personnel with an ambulance, equipment costs and upkeep and insurance for every event that has to be paid for. The pricing is set so that we need about 45+/- at every event to break even. Some of the tracks require even more. In my time on the board, the Time Trials have struggled to break even each year. Robert and Jack are changing the format to make it easier for some to join us without severely affecting the amount of driving time that we are used to. The extra cost is minimal in my opinion and if it helps keep the TT series alive, then that's what it takes. In case you haven't noticed, the club has tightened its collective belt and trimmed away quite a few of the "luxury" events that we used to do. Every event has to at least try to break even. The time trial pricing is an attempt to do just that.

Thanks Mark for your response. However, in the case of streets of willow where the track is $6000, 45 entrants at the $320 per entrant old price that yields $14,400 or $8400 to pay for the items you mentioned. Show me where you pay $8400 extra or anywhere near that for that venue and I'll shut up right now. The fact is it doesn't. Now at the other tracks I do not know, however Buttonwillow may be in the same ball park. I know that timing system was paid for in 1-2 seasons with TT money, back then the attendance was probably higher. Nobody is saying it should be a losing proposition , but where was the money lost? CFOS? which events? If you are simply trying to amortize the season then just say so. Although I do not know how to feel about subsidizing events I didn't attend. Are you not considering at all as the price goes up less will attend not more? How much money was lost? would 3 extra entrants have made it even? I am not one to stick my head in the sand and say, so it went up I dont care. Especially when I ask and it gets ignored like its a matter of national security. So thank you Mark for your response, although I have a feeling this will be the last I get...

[Steve Grosekemper]

Dan,

The costs associated with a track event for us are much more than just track rental. We have corner workers, emergency personnel with an ambulance, equipment costs and upkeep and insurance for every event that has to be paid for. The pricing is set so that we need about 45+/- at every event to break even. Some of the tracks require even more. In my time on the board, the Time Trials have struggled to break even each year. Robert and Jack are changing the format to make it easier for some to join us without severely affecting the amount of driving time that we are used to. The extra cost is minimal in my opinion and if it helps keep the TT series alive, then that's what it takes. In case you haven't noticed, the club has tightened its collective belt and trimmed away quite a few of the "luxury" events that we used to do. Every event has to at least try to break even. The time trial pricing is an attempt to do just that.

Thanks Mark for your response. However, in the case of streets of willow where the track is $6000, 45 entrants at the $320 per entrant old price that yields $14,400 or $8400 to pay for the items you mentioned. Show me where you pay $8400 extra or anywhere near that for that venue and I'll shut up right now. The fact is it doesn't. Now at the other tracks I do not know, however Buttonwillow may be in the same ball park. I know that timing system was paid for in 1-2 seasons with TT money, back then the attendance was probably higher. Nobody is saying it should be a losing proposition , but where was the money lost? CFOS? which events? If you are simply trying to amortize the season then just say so. Although I do not know how to feel about subsidizing events I didn't attend. Are you not considering at all as the price goes up less will attend not more? How much money was lost? would 3 extra entrants have made it even? I am not one to stick my head in the sand and say, so it went up I dont care. Especially when I ask and it gets ignored like its a matter of national security. So thank you Mark for your response, although I have a feeling this will be the last I get...

Maybe I can shed some light on the numbers for you Dan. Button willow is $12,000, Big Willow is $10,400. Chuckwalla is $10,000 just for track rental. Ambulance is $115 per hour. They must be there 16-18 hours which is about $2000. These numbers I found on line just like you could do. Other costs I think are very accurate but do not have current 2010 data in front of me.
Corner workers are $1500. Insurance is about $500 and add $500 for Misc.
That is $16,5000 for BW or 51.56 drivers at $320 per driver. our season driver average is 42 leaving a loss for this virtual BW event of $3060.
I for one don't want to pay $475 ($471.42 to be exact) for BW when only 35 cars show up.
For this reason we average the cost of all events to $320 and last year we lost money.
If you want prices to remain constant or go down in cost there is one very simple thing you can do.
Sign up for as many big track events as you can.
http://pcasdr.motorsportreg.com/
Then call your friends that haven't been to the track lately (you know who I am talking about) or at all and tell them about our awesome new TT/DE program and have them sign up.
Then you can go to events with your friends that will help you in anything from your driving to repairing your car to tire and parts loans to rides back to the hotel or a even a tow home; and all with a smile on their faces. For me that is the true value of our events.
Good luck getting any of that at http://www.track-o-ramma_runwhatUbrungNselftech.com for $250 per weekend.

I am not Mark, but if he was standing next to me I think he would say, "My name is Mark Rondeau and I approve this message".
And Dan; I really hope to see you and all your friends at the track.

[mrondeau]

Dan,

The costs associated with a track event for us are much more than just track rental. We have corner workers, emergency personnel with an ambulance, equipment costs and upkeep and insurance for every event that has to be paid for. The pricing is set so that we need about 45+/- at every event to break even. Some of the tracks require even more. In my time on the board, the Time Trials have struggled to break even each year. Robert and Jack are changing the format to make it easier for some to join us without severely affecting the amount of driving time that we are used to. The extra cost is minimal in my opinion and if it helps keep the TT series alive, then that's what it takes. In case you haven't noticed, the club has tightened its collective belt and trimmed away quite a few of the "luxury" events that we used to do. Every event has to at least try to break even. The time trial pricing is an attempt to do just that.

Thanks Mark for your response. However, in the case of streets of willow where the track is $6000, 45 entrants at the $320 per entrant old price that yields $14,400 or $8400 to pay for the items you mentioned. Show me where you pay $8400 extra or anywhere near that for that venue and I'll shut up right now. The fact is it doesn't. Now at the other tracks I do not know, however Buttonwillow may be in the same ball park. I know that timing system was paid for in 1-2 seasons with TT money, back then the attendance was probably higher. Nobody is saying it should be a losing proposition , but where was the money lost? CFOS? which events? If you are simply trying to amortize the season then just say so. Although I do not know how to feel about subsidizing events I didn't attend. Are you not considering at all as the price goes up less will attend not more? How much money was lost? would 3 extra entrants have made it even? I am not one to stick my head in the sand and say, so it went up I dont care. Especially when I ask and it gets ignored like its a matter of national security. So thank you Mark for your response, although I have a feeling this will be the last I get...

Maybe I can shed some light on the numbers for you Dan. Button willow is $12,000, Big Willow is $10,400. Chuckwalla is $10,000 just for track rental. Ambulance is $115 per hour. They must be there 16-18 hours which is about $2000. These numbers I found on line just like you could do. Other costs I think are very accurate but do not have current 2010 data in front of me.
Corner workers are $1500. Insurance is about $500 and add $500 for Misc.
That is $16,5000 for BW or 51.56 drivers at $320 per driver. our season driver average is 42 leaving a loss for this virtual BW event of $3060.
I for one don't want to pay $475 ($471.42 to be exact) for BW when only 35 cars show up.
For this reason we average the cost of all events to $320 and last year we lost money.
If you want prices to remain constant or go down in cost there is one very simple thing you can do.
Sign up for as many big track events as you can.
http://pcasdr.motorsportreg.com/
Then call your friends that haven't been to the track lately (you know who I am talking about) or at all and tell them about our awesome new TT/DE program and have them sign up.
Then you can go to events with your friends that will help you in anything from your driving to repairing your car to tire and parts loans to rides back to the hotel or a even a tow home; and all with a smile on their faces. For me that is the true value of our events.
Good luck getting any of that at http://www.track-o-ramma_runwhatUbrungNselftech.com for $250 per weekend.

I am not Mark, but if he was standing next to me I think he would say, "My name is Mark Rondeau and I approve this message".
And Dan; I really hope to see you and all your friends at the track.

My name is Mark Rondeau and I approve this message!

[Otto]

I like you Dan, you contribute a good dosage of humor to this Forum but frankly you are going too far now in the way you are chastising the committed and dedicated volunteer members that are doing all they can to make the TT Series possible for all of us to participate in. You make it sound like they have gotten together in a conspiracy to defraud everybody and that is wrong. I am actually surprised that these organizers have been patient enough and each taken turns to write lengthy messages answering your aggressive questioning and you are still not satisfied. Being one of the more active participants in the TT Series I can only applaud and thank the organizers Jack and Robert for the selfless and outstanding job they are doing in keeping this TT Series going with such success even in these difficult times. You have also been able to enjoy the product of their work, how about being a bit more measured and positive with your criticism?

[gulf911]

Otto,
I am not chastising anybody. The question asked by many ,on 'page 1', was why the $25 extra for 2 timed runs?. It only took 3 pages to get a response regarding it. This would have all stopped if in the very beginning anyone would have chimed in and said 'we lost money last year' and that is why we are charging it. It took 3 pages of asking, for someone to step up, thank you Steve, and explain the cost is amortized over all the events and acknowledge that Streets does make a profit. This also explains how other clubs can charge less because they don't, its based on the venue.
I happen to appreciate greatly the work and time it takes to put this series together and the great job Robert and Jack continue to do , but that doesn't mean I won't ask questions.

I hope to see you all at Streets.

Thx ,
Dan

[pecivil]

Then you can go to events with your friends that will help you in anything from your driving to repairing your car to tire and parts loans to rides back to the hotel or a even a tow home; and all with a smile on their faces. For me that is the true value of our events.

and hey at my 1st TT this happened to me: My front brake pads died and Steve G happened to figure out rear 911 pads fit (almost) perfectly on the front of a lotus. And I made it home without paying god knows what for a tow. Literally my car was fixed in less than 20 minutes by people who I hardly knew and didn't know me from Adam.

And another thanks to Robert & Jack. I am a newb at this but I couldn't imagine any other group having better track days than PCASDR.
I CAN"T WAIT! for streets!

[Gary Burch]

I just checked the Registration Form. Why isn't a 1 day ticket half price of a full week end ticket. $195-$320. That doesn't make sense.
It should be $160.

[Mmagus]

I just checked the Registration Form. Why isn't a 1 day ticket half price of a full week end ticket. $195-$320. That doesn't make sense.
It should be $160.

Maybe you are doing the math backwards? Perhaps the price should be DOUBLE of what the one day cost is, but if you sign up for two its $70 LESS.

[Mike]

Maybe you are doing the math backwards? Perhaps the price should be DOUBLE of what the one day cost is, but if you sign up for two its $70 LESS.

You are a good German Mmagus.
It just feels better if I don't have to pay more for half as much.
I understand the big picture pricing of PCA events and hope the club TT/DE series survive, whatever the cost.
Cheapest, perhaps not the safest SOW track day.
Jan 8/9 $105 a day.
http://www.extremespeedtrackevents.com/
Bummed no Buttonwillow or Spring Mtn on the 2011 DE/TT schedule?