Tesla at Jan 15th AX - Drive it!

[Mmagus]

EV's are a great concept...but I wonder just what the carbon footprint to manafacture the battery bank is? Mine the materials in China, process it, ship it to somewhere else in the world to be made into a battery, US, or Canada, make the batteries, ship the them to the vehicle maker, then gen the current to give them their first charge. How long do you have to run an EV before you get past the emmisions it took just to make the battery bank? I am unsure how long a bank will continue to take recharges, 5, 10 years before you have to replace it? Please understand I am not being argumentitive. I really am curious if a "0" emisions car (which no car ever really is, unless it has peddles) ever overcomes the hit on the enviroment that just keeping it in batteries causes?

[ttweed]

Tom, where do you suppose the electricity that comes out of your socket comes from? Good guesses would be Washington state (hydroelectric - good) Utah (coal - bad), and Arizona (coal - bad). We sure aren't producing enough in California to meet our needs...

My understanding is that CA produces the majority of its power used, and it comes mostly from natural gas, nuclear, hydroelectric and geothermal sources. We have a much lower percentage of coal as a power source compared to the eastern parts of the country. The CA state mandate is that 20% of this generation will be from renewable resources soon. This chart shows that of the nearly 297.000 Gigawatt hours reported for CA in 2009, only a net 91,131 GWH were imported (95,760 total imports less 4,629 exports), and also documents the totals for various fuel sources used for power generation. Our state is among those that would see an overall emissions improvement at the higher 40% rather than 27% level. Even in 100% coal states there would be a net improvement.

AFAIK, we have plenty of generation capacity for everything except peak load periods, when power must be imported. "The U.S. electric infrastructure is designed to meet the highest expected demand for power and, as a result, is underutilized the majority of the time. The system operates at its full capacity only a few hundred hours a year, at most (about 5% of the time)." The reality is that for much of the night, power plants are idled to prevent an oversupply condition. By utilizing the off-peak capacity better, large numbers of EVs can be deployed using smart-charging strategies without threatening the grid or causing additional major infrastructure upgrades.

Then there are transmission losses.

HV electric transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 6.5% in 2007. If you want to talk about "transmission losses," look at your ICE car! Petroleum is one of the most energy-dense and available power sources around, and it is never going to go away, but it is not all that efficient in a car. ICE vehicles run at about 15-35% efficiency, meaning that 65-85% of the energy content of their fuel is wasted, going out the tailpipe in heat, versus EVs which put about 70-85% of their energy into turning the wheels. When you consider the overall "well-to-wheel" efficiency of various vehicular fuel sources, an EV wins hands down. See the Tesla efficiency white paper. A turbo-diesel car would have the next best rating, though, as you suggest.

TT

[ttweed]

EV's are a great concept...but I wonder just what the carbon footprint to manafacture the battery bank is? Mine the materials in China, process it, ship it to somewhere else in the world to be made into a battery, US, or Canada, make the batteries, ship the them to the vehicle maker, then gen the current to give them their first charge. How long do you have to run an EV before you get past the emmisions it took just to make the battery bank? I am unsure how long a bank will continue to take recharges, 5, 10 years before you have to replace it? Please understand I am not being argumentitive. I really am curious if a "0" emisions car (which no car ever really is, unless it has peddles) ever overcomes the hit on the enviroment that just keeping it in batteries causes?

I understand your curiousness regarding these questions, Mark, and I was in the same position myself not too long ago. Those are complex questions, but there are answers out there for all of them that land squarely on the side of EVs being part of the solution, not part of the problem. You might start here for some general info on EVs. You should also consider the energy path of the entire petroleum supply chain if you are going to look at batteries this way, from getting the oil out of the ground, to refining it and delivering it to the fuel pump. The oil industry has had decades to build pipelines and develop refinery techniques to streamline this process, but it is still quite energy intensive. Do you know how much energy it takes to get a gallon of gasoline to the pump from the oil field? There are estimates that it is in the neighborhood of 5-7.5KWH, when you include the natural gas that is consumed in the refining process and might otherwise be used for electrical generation. This wasted energy could be used to power an EV for 20-30 miles, not to mention what you could do with the electricity obtained by putting the gallon of gasoline produced into a generator and making more!

Battery technology is absolutely the key to making EVs efficient and "clean," as is the development of the infrastructure to support their use. At the moment, their cost and range limitations are the only things keeping them from wider acceptance. This situation is changing rapidly, and there are billions of dollars being poured into R&D currently that will eventually result in overcoming these limitations and push them into the mainstream. When this will happen is largely a guess at this moment, but the movement has definitely begun in earnest with the commitment by Nissan and GM to the Leaf and Volt production, as well as government incentives to encourage their development and penetration in the marketplace (see the EV Project site). It is quite depressing to think of where we might be at this point in time if CARB had not killed the electric car back in the '90s after intense lobbying by manufacturers, the oil industry and the Bush administration.

As far as the current state of battery performance goes, this document can answer your question. A quote: "Battery durability testing sponsored jointly by EPRI and Southern California Edison demonstrate that current lithium-ion batteries are likely to retain sufficient capacity for more than 3000 dynamic deep-discharge cycles—about 10–12 years of typical driving." In addition, when the battery pack is depleted beyond its usefulness for a vehicular application, even at 1/2 of original capacity, it will still have a second life as a storage battery for renewable energy storage, grid load management or as a back-up power supply before being recycled, which can be done in the same way that lead-acid batteries are currently recycled. The DOE has awarded $2.4 billion to domestic companies developing batteries and systems for electric vehicles as part of the economic recovery packages. This is the kind of "clean-tech" industry we need to keep the US economy competitive in the future. We have allowed China to dominate the rare earths market for the last decade, and that reality is just coming home to roost. There is actually nothing rare about lithium, however--there are vast reserves of it outside of China, including in the USA. China has simply captured the current market due to how cheaply they can mine these materials. As demand and prices go up, it will become viable for other companies to compete again.

Your question about the "greenness" of Li-ion battery manufacturing has been answered by a Swiss study that calculated the ecological footprints of electric cars fitted with li-ion batteries, taking into account many factors all the way from its production through its operation to its disposal, and then compared that information with that of gasoline cars. Overall, EVs use fewer natural resources and have less environmental impact. See this Discovery article for a synopsis of the study.

For an idea of where battery tech may go in the future, google "lithium air battery". Storage battery costs have already come down from around $1000/kwh to $500 or so, and are expected to drop more in the near future from tech advances and economies of scale in manufacturing. The possibilities of where EV battery technology might go in the future are mind-boggling, and limited only by our willingness to invest in the future. I am hoping that in 8-10 years, when my Leaf battery pack wears out, I will be able to replace it with a new, more efficient pack with a higher power density, longer life, longer range, at half the current cost, while trading in my old pack for use in a growing reuse/recycling industry, paying a net cost of less than a valve job on my 911, after enjoying all that time filling it up from a wall plug at $2.00/100 miles "fueling" cost (with no oil changes along the way!)

We need to attack the problems of dependence on foreign oil, pollution, and climate change from all angles to achieve any meaningful results over the next several decades. Battery power is not ever going to be a solution for heavy equipment or airplanes, etc., but for light duty vehicles, EVs are an excellent, immediate solution. Even Porsche is moving that way, experimenting first with hybrids, waiting for battery technology to reach their desired performance standards for a sports vehicle.

HTH,
TT

[Irksome]

So, what was the final answer/story on the Tesla(s)? Will they be at the stadium on Saturday? Are they available for test drives? If so, what must one do to have a shot at it? When should interested non-AX participants show up to drool?

[Mmagus]

So, what was the final answer/story on the Tesla(s)? Will they be at the stadium on Saturday? Are they available for test drives? If so, what must one do to have a shot at it? When should interested non-AX participants show up to drool?

Good question. Here is "the final answer"

1 or 2 Roadsters will be on site including a table with literature on the technology and the car Tesla Reps will be onsite to answer questions on the Roadster and Tesla Motors.

There will raffle from 9-12 for five Autocross test drives throughout the day.

For anyone that places a $9,900 refundable deposit on a Tesla Roadster before or at the event -- which can be made via credit card – he/she will have the opportunity to drive the Roadster on site. https://www.teslamotors.com/own

Tesla will provide VIP Private Test Drive Certificates to qualified Porsche owners to be scheduled directly at their home or office.

Tesla will be there early with the rest of us, so if you are a non-AX person you could show up a bit latter, but I encourage you to come out, early, maybe walk the tarck with the racers, and get to see another side of your club. (plus that gives you more Tesla "drool time")

[Irksome]

I've spent plenty of time with 'the other side of the club', even with 'the other side of the fence' (for those that remember December, 2008). I'm not planning to run the autocross tomorrow, but I guess I'll show up in the morning to drool and say hi to everyone.

Are autocross Tesla runs being raffled to people who are not participating in the autocross?

I am disappointed that they won't be providing simpler test drives around the parking lot.

Tom Meissner

[Mmagus]

I've spent plenty of time with 'the other side of the club', even with 'the other side of the fence' (for those that remember December, 2008). I'm not planning to run the autocross tomorrow, but I guess I'll show up in the morning to drool and say hi to everyone.

Are autocross Tesla runs being raffled to people who are not participating in the autocross?

I am disappointed that they won't be providing simpler test drives around the parking lot.

Tom Meissner

It will be good to meet you then Tom. Stop by the start line and say hi. The raffle is open to all Club members. As to the simpler test drives, that is all up to Tesla, it was their call.

[Chaoscreature]

The Tesla roadster has a range of about 250 miles on a full charge. Heavy-footed use may decrease that by 20-30%, so it should be able to drive 25 easy miles to the stadium, run 100+ hard laps on the longest track we have ever thrown there, and still make it home with battery charge to spare.

I am at home sick today and just watched Top Gear. They had a Tesla Roadster on their show. While it beat the Elise around their track it only went 55 miles before running out of juice. Fortunately they brought a spare Tesla for the show, but they overheated the motor on that one. That being said, with the Stig driving the Tesla it matched a 911 GT3 on their test track. It's an amazing car for sure, but it should be priced closer to the Elise in my opinion.

[ttweed]

I am at home sick today and just watched Top Gear. They had a Tesla Roadster on their show. While it beat the Elise around their track it only went 55 miles before running out of juice.

When was this filmed? I am guessing this was the 2008 show? There was quite a lot of controversy over Clarkson's "dramatization" of events on that show. A Tesla spokesperson responded with statements in blogs and to mainstream news organizations that the cars provided to Top Gear never had less than 20% charge and never experienced brake failure. In addition, neither car provided to Top Gear needed to be pushed off the track at any point. After numerous blogs and several large news organizations began following the controversy, the BBC issued a statement saying "the tested Tesla was filmed being pushed into the shed in order to show what would happen if the Roadster had run out of charge. Top Gear stands by the findings in this film and is content that it offers a fair representation of the Tesla's performance on the day it was tested," without addressing the other misrepresentations that Tesla highlighted to the media. After several weeks of increasing pressure and inquiries from the BBC, Clarkson wrote a blog for The Times of London, acknowledging that "that the film we had shot was a bit of a mess." In the months that followed Clarkson's acknowledgment, the original episode—including the misstatements—reran on BBC America and elsewhere without any editing, though the BBC is still looking into Top Gear's journalism standards, according to British media reports. They are not above making a good story out of thin air on that show.

The Roadsters have a very sophisticated 56kWh battery pack that should give far more range than 55 miles even if driven at the limit. It costs $36K to produce, though, plus a complex battery management and thermal control system, thus the high cost of the cars.

TT

[Carl Scragg]

Tesla Motors is sponsoring tomorrows AX. Not only are they giving us the opportunity to test drive some very unique vehicles, they are providing generous financial support as well. I hope that everyone will treat them with all the courtesy and respect they deserve at the event and on this forum.

I'm not asking anyone to be less than honest, but the club's standing rules specifically prohibit the use of this forum to "disparage any product, company, or individual." Please don't let your comments turn into a Porsche vs Tesla flame war. They are extremely different, but both very exciting automobiles. Thanks for supporting the Club and the event. Carl

[Chaoscreature]

I'm sorry if my comment sounded disparaging... I am going to blame it on the codeine
I was stating what I saw on the show. It does not surprise me at all that Top Gear woud exagerate any negatives the car might have. The fact that the Tesla could match a GT3 around the track speaks absolute tons about the performance of the Tesla. The 0-60 in sub 4 seconds isn't any small feat either. When the battery and electronics prices come down this is definitely a car I would love to have in my garage.

[Irksome]

I got a test drive in the parking lot, what a wonderful car. Freaky fast, and eery quiet.

Makes me even more likely to purchase their sedan when it comes out next year.

[ttweed]

The 0-60 in sub 4 seconds isn't any small feat either.

The acceleration of the car is absolutely phenomenal. I wish i could have been lucky enough to have won one of the track drives to see how it handled, but just driving it in the parking lot and around the stadium was an eye-opener. Having the full 295 ft.lbs of torque available at any speed without "winding up" the engine to get into the powerband like an ICE engine is a very different feeling. You don't have to wait for it to come on the cams like a Porsche, it just surges ahead hard when you step on it, with just an eerie whining sound like a jet turbine, but much quieter. It is definitely a different kind of driving experience. Thanks to Tesla for bringing the cars out and letting us see, touch and drive them. Before this, I had only seen them behind ropes at car shows.

TT

[Sawfish]

Never did hear the "raffle" results for who got the Tesla ride on the track

[Curt Yaws]

I'm very much with Tom, but without the eloquence of his writing. The Tesla is just crazy fast, in a weird sort of smooth way. It's not noisy, not rough, but goes fast and makes you want to be on a track drifting. It is really a remarkable car and a great driving experience. We were fortunate to have them visit.