Thoughts on the weight points in 2012 rules

[ttweed]

It should be, how does your car compare to the stock weight.

No, it should actually be how much does the car weigh with the driver in it, as raced, IMHO.

TT

[Aavitt]

Thanks Tom. So if a full tank of gas weighs 125 lbs , (as Jad mentioned), and I do timed runs with 1/4 tank of gas , I am bringing the weight down about 90 lbs to 2953. We have no other weight removed from the GT3. So we are competing with much lighter cars in CC06, granted with perhaps less horsepower, but as Steve G. explained, less weight creates a definite advantage. With Jad's car he said it weighs 2650 dry, so add 1/4 tank of gas + 30 lbs, so about 2680. So 273 lbs less than our GT3. Although with Jad driving, he would be hard to beat in any car! No matter what it weighed. But I think that explains why I feel that our RS class- (Stock Gt3) should not be competing with a car that has so much weight removed. I have no intentions of stripping out the interior of our car, that's for sure. I will just have to drive faster. No problem.

[mrondeau]

I actually went back to my weight sheet on the 944S and discovered that I don't have to take any weight points for my car. It's a CC12 car right now. If I want to change to 225's all around, it's a CC13 car. According to the 2012 rules, I can take 212 lbs out of the car and remain in CC11
I think the weights should be what the car weighs as it comes off the track with driver. Much easier to figure out and police.

[Greg Phillips]

It should be, how does your car compare to the stock weight.

No, it should actually be how much does the car weigh with the driver in it, as raced, IMHO.

TT

Sounds good to me

But then Steve and I would be in different classes due to weight differences

Sounds good to me
He would no longer be getting the Danica Patrick advantage

Greg

[Aavitt]

I agree that we should weigh all the cars with the driver in it and go from there. I could be in a different class than Mike. I like it! So who will be submitting the expense to the board for buying scales to bring to the track?

[jenniferreinhardt]

Well, I really don't have the time to really try and understand all of this but what a hassle if the car has to be weighed to be fair. So would we have a yearly weight of the car? With random checks? And how do we know these random checks are fairly distributed? We took weight out and then added back in with roll bar etc. We really don't want to take out stereo, speakers, heater and air conditioner until it is not a street car anymore. I guess if we get to that point I'll have to start driving the formula car, or get a new hobby, or move to a different zone. But then again, is this all worth it for a 50 cent trophy?

[Aavitt]

On second thought, that would be me in a faster class with less weight. Oh forget it, I am so confused. I want my L back.

[Aavitt]

that would be me in a faster class with less weight

I meant that would put me in a faster class with less weight.

[Mmagus]

The BIG proplem with weighing vehicles is that we will have to have the ORIGIONAL ABSOLUTE EXACT correct weight for each and every model of Porshce PRECISLY or the process will be unfair and inaccurate.

I take a slightly different aproach to this whole thing. I dont need to know what my car weighs. Instead, I just weigh the things I take OUT of my car. When/if it gets over a total of 50lbs I'll take points. If I put in a roll bar I will weigh that before installation and change the total of the add/subtract items total.

Simple.

Easy.

No need for car scales.

If I owned a car that I didn't change from stock, as I am with this one. That was perhaps modified before I bought it. I would go to the local rock supply yard and use their scales, then check things against the Owners Manual and take my figures and points as needed based on the factory information

All of this works, provided we are all honest...which we are...right? If we feel like we have to bring scales to monitor people something is wrong already. And not with the weight of the car.

[Jad]

The BIG proplem with weighing vehicles is that we will have to have the ORIGIONAL ABSOLUTE EXACT correct weight for each and every model of Porshce PRECISLY or the process will be unfair and inaccurate.

I take a slightly different aproach to this whole thing. I dont need to know what my car weighs. Instead, I just weigh the things I take OUT of my car. When/if it gets over a total of 50lbs I'll take points. If I put in a roll bar I will weigh that before installation and change the total of the add/subtract items total.

Simple.

Easy.

No need for car scales.

If I owned a car that I didn't change from stock, as I am with this one. That was perhaps modified before I bought it. I would go to the local rock supply yard and use their scales, then check things against the Owners Manual and take my figures and points as needed based on the factory information

All of this works, provided we are all honest...which we are...right? If we feel like we have to bring scales to monitor people something is wrong already. And not with the weight of the car.

Might be easy, but it doesn't work. The book values do not correspond with the actual weight of the car. You may be too high or low and weighing what you take out doesn't tell you anything unless you have an actual starting point of an accurate weight for your exact car and options.

[tb911]

For what it is worth, in general the honor system seems to have worked fairly well over the years. In other words, scales at events seem like something more than we need to do.

As for the weight figures, there have been a lot of complaints about the GGR rules and the figures they provide, so we will be reviewing them in detail before the 2012 official implementation

[Carl Vanders]

A buddy of mine runs with NASA and mentioned they use a power to weight formula that factors tires. Its interesting and maybe something to consider in the mix.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf Pg 10

[Mmagus]

Might be easy, but it doesn't work. The book values do not correspond with the actual weight of the car. You may be too high or low and weighing what you take out doesn't tell you anything unless you have an actual starting point of an accurate weight for your exact car and options.

Jad,
In re-reading this thread, you are correct. For starting classification this method might not be the optimal. However you do bring up an interesting point. Given that VERY few of us have a bone stock origonl car to take an initial weight from, where do we get the figures? Out of the possibilities my vote goes to the owners manual.

But then again... I dont even touch the check book, I mess it up every every time. So maybe it my artist mind just seeing things a different way.

[Greg Phillips]

For what it is worth, in general the honor system seems to have worked fairly well over the years. In other words, scales at events seem like something more than we need to do.

As for the weight figures, there have been a lot of complaints about the GGR rules and the figures they provide, so we will be reviewing them in detail before the 2012 official implementation

Remember the perfection is unattainable

I believe that most of the complaints will be people who feel that the GGR weights are too high, or at least higher than their owner's manual number.
In the past, ideally you wanted your car's listed weight to be as low as possible, so that when you took weight out of the car, you were not penalized for it.

Under the new rules, it is a two-edged sword.
1: A low listed weight would allow you to have a lighter car without needing to take weight modification points
but
2: A low listed weight would increase your power to weight (PW) ratio and increase your basepoints

Remember that the weights listed were what was used to calculate the PW and the subsequent basepoints. If you decide to change the weights, then the basepoints would also have to change, likely ending you up where you started from. The weights do not need to be 100% accurate for every car, (no listed weight will cover all options and possibilities) they just need to be fairly accurate for the model.

There is probably more variation in power output from car to car, but since we don't pull the engine and dyno them and get a crank HP, and rarely even check on a chassis dyno, we live with the variation.

This is another reason to use the PW and calculated points for your weight penalty, it limits gaming of the system

Greg

[Don Middleton]

...Under the new rules, it is a two-edged sword.
1: A low listed weight would allow you to have a lighter car without needing to take weight modification points
but
2: A low listed weight would increase your power to weight (PW) ratio and increase your basepoints

Remember that the weights listed were what was used to calculate the PW and the subsequent basepoints. If you decide to change the weights, then the basepoints would also have to change, likely ending you up where you started from. The weights do not need to be 100% accurate for every car, (no listed weight will cover all options and possibilities) they just need to be fairly accurate for the model.

Important clarification, Greg, and not something most members understand. Keep pitchin' - Otto is listening!