Thoughts on the weight points in 2012 rules

[Don Middleton]

I did not pick the weights used by GGR, and I don't know how they came about, but they are listed as the PCNA official curb weights.
I was in favor of these rules before I knew what their weights were.

Is there any way to find out how PCNA came up with those curb weights? They might actually make more sense for us than the Owner's Manual weights.

[Jad]

As far as running against Jad you truely have my condolences. But don't blame the car: in equal equipment I don't think anyone in our TT series could beat him.
I have just seen him do the impossible too many times in whatever he happens to be piloting; 911, Kart or LMP2 car.
If he wasn't such a great guy I would probably hate him.

Maybe we should bring back the voodoo doll.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the doll again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Has it been six months already

That video is going to go over 1000 views on Youtube

[mrondeau]

Jad, Fame has its price.

[mrondeau]

Yes, my original understanding was that the GGR-style points system was only going to be used as a trial for this year, but the SDR TT team adopted it (with all its flaws) as the official points system for 2011.

The Time Trial series has two ways to win awards this year. SDR is using the 2012 system so that we can get some real world data with it and Zone 8 (all SDR Time Trials) is using the old system.
So Otto may lose to Jad (assuming they both make all events) in the Region, but he can still beat up on II in his optimized for II class car in Zone 8.

Rules proposals are being accepted for 2012 by the Zone 8 rules committee as we speak.

[ttweed]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO not the doll again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Has it been six months already

That video is going to go over 1000 views on Youtube

Just for the newbies who might not remember Curt Anderson or the infamous Buttonwillow video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tXClMuePc0

You're welcome, Jad! Just keepin' the luv alive...
TT

[Mark Garriott]

To hijack my own thread...

I don't understand why there are TWO formulas for determining points based on weight, the 'base points' -- 4000/PW -- and the additional weight penalty -- 'removed weight' * .4. And, they have two difference rates of points accrual

I think we should rely solely on power-to-weight, and the entire weight penalty section X should be thrown out. Whatever weight my car happens to be -- whether determined by the owners manual, or actual scales -- that is the weight I use in the 4000/PW formula.

The X section makes sense under the older rules, where cars classes were grouped by model -- .4 points per pound is applied equitably across all 944s, or across all 914s, etc. But under a rules scheme where a jumble of different models (and base weights) could be within the same class, a flat-rate penalty does not make sense.

[Mmagus]

To hijack my own thread...

I don't understand why there are TWO formulas for determining points based on weight, the 'base points' -- 4000/PW -- and the additional weight penalty -- 'removed weight' * .4. And, they have two difference rates of points accrual

I think we should rely solely on power-to-weight, and the entire weight penalty section X should be thrown out. Whatever weight my car happens to be -- whether determined by the owners manual, or actual scales -- that is the weight I use in the 4000/PW formula.

The X section makes sense under the older rules, where cars classes were grouped by model -- .4 points per pound is applied equitably across all 944s, or across all 914s, etc. But under a rules scheme where a jumble of different models (and base weights) could be within the same class, a flat-rate penalty does not make sense.

Now THERE is an interesting idea, though it would necessitate having scales available. Just weigh everyone, with whatever weight they have removed then apply the HP/Weight formula and that determines your base starting points. After that 50lbs for free, beyond thet you weigh again. new or visiting drivers would be placed in the "mostly likely" class for their first event, and weighed at the event.

now if we just had some porta scales....

[Mark Garriott]

Keep in mind that most of the weight and horsepower stuff, no matter the which rules are being used, are a 'best guess' situation. Along the same lines, enforcement will always be problematic, independent of the details of rules.

Scales aren't a necessity, but they would be nice to have when classifying new cars, or addressing weight disparity across different cars of the same model. Even though an automatic car 'could' get down to the same weight as a manual without taking points, it is still hauling extra weight around in stock form.

If the true weight of the car is known, the 50 lbs 'slop factor' isn't necessary. It becomes a 'run what ya brung' situation.

[Greg Phillips]

To hijack my own thread...

I don't understand why there are TWO formulas for determining points based on weight, the 'base points' -- 4000/PW -- and the additional weight penalty -- 'removed weight' * .4. And, they have two difference rates of points accrual

I think we should rely solely on power-to-weight, and the entire weight penalty section X should be thrown out. Whatever weight my car happens to be -- whether determined by the owners manual, or actual scales -- that is the weight I use in the 4000/PW formula.

The X section makes sense under the older rules, where cars classes were grouped by model -- .4 points per pound is applied equitably across all 944s, or across all 914s, etc. But under a rules scheme where a jumble of different models (and base weights) could be within the same class, a flat-rate penalty does not make sense.

There are not 2 systems, there is the present system for the proposed 2012 rules, based on our old system, removed weight x 0.4.

The OTHER system is what I am recommending to be used in the future, based on the PW calculation. This system incorporates the concept of PW for basepoints and carries it forward to use for penalizing weight reductions (also for stock engine swaps). It will need to be reviewed by the rules committee and will hopefully replace the section X.

Greg

[gulf911]

Scales, precise weight.... We are going for .50 ribbons right??
Although , I am still figuring out how you can drop 200 lbs in an SC and still have the same points according to Mr. Greg...
So it shows my car has a 2310 base weight, however, I am at 2375 with no driver. Do I get to subtract points?

[Mark Garriott]

Greg,

Perhaps we are arguing the same thing?

There are 2 different formulas in the proposed 2012 rules that use weight as a factor: the 4000/PW formula for 'base points', and the section X "removal weight * .4" formula. I don't think they are compatible.

I am suggesting we rely solely on the 4000/PW formula, and when possible use the real weight of the car.

Since my Boxster S has never been on scales or dyno, I plug in the (questionable?) published values in the 2012 rules -- 2850 lbs, 250 hp.

4000 / (2850/250) + (2001-2010)+5*(7 + 8.5 - 12) + 25 = 385

Suppose I gut the interior, worth 200 lbs. Relying solely on the HP/weight ratio, I plug in the new weight of 2650 for my new 'base points'

4000 / (2650/250) + (2001-2010)+5*(7 + 8.5 - 12) + 25 = 410

[Mark Garriott]

Dan,

If 'base points' were determined by your car's weight, and not some one-size-fits all chart, yes, you would get points back. Not a whole lot, but some.

Assuming a '73 911S

Current scheme:
=4000/(2310/181)+(1973-2010)+5*(6 + 6 - 12) = 276 points

Harebrained scheme:
=4000/(2375/181)+(1973-2010)+5*(6 + 6 - 12) = 267 points.

[Mmagus]

Scales, precise weight.... We are going for .50 ribbons right??
Although , I am still figuring out how you can drop 200 lbs in an SC and still have the same points according to Mr. Greg...
So it shows my car has a 2310 base weight, however, I am at 2375 with no driver. Do I get to subtract points?

Not pushing for it, just batting concepts around.

Given that, how much money and time do folks already invest in those $.50 ribbons? Drive up, weigh, drive off would take about 30 seconds. Do it once a year, sounds easy to me. Or...heck make it a seperate party! BBQ Weigh-in at Paul Youngs (yes..I just volenteered him!!)

[Greg Phillips]

Greg,

Perhaps we are arguing the same thing?

There are 2 different formulas in the proposed 2012 rules that use weight as a factor: the 4000/PW formula for 'base points', and the section X "removal weight * .4" formula. I don't think they are compatible.

I am suggesting we rely solely on the 4000/PW formula, and when possible use the real weight of the car.

Since my Boxster S has never been on scales or dyno, I plug in the (questionable?) published values in the 2012 rules -- 2850 lbs, 250 hp.

4000 / (2850/250) + (2001-2010)+5*(7 + 8.5 - 12) + 25 = 385

Suppose I gut the interior, worth 200 lbs. Relying solely on the HP/weight ratio, I plug in the new weight of 2650 for my new 'base points'

4000 / (2650/250) + (2001-2010)+5*(7 + 8.5 - 12) + 25 = 410

Yes, same answer with different semantics.
My system would leave the basepoints and add 25 points for weight reduction= 410.
Part of the reason is the issue of safety equipment which is predicated on your modification points. The more modifications you make, the more safety equipment is an issue

Details would be how granular or precise to be. I think you would want to limit it to 5-10 points as the smallest increment.
The other question is how the weight is to be measured, as driven or with spare and tools etc.
I would recommend the only addition be a full tank of gas.
Since you would not be taking points until reaching the 5 or 10 point increment, you would also remove the 50 pound allowance.

Greg

[Greg Phillips]

Scales, precise weight.... We are going for .50 ribbons right??
Although , I am still figuring out how you can drop 200 lbs in an SC and still have the same points according to Mr. Greg...
So it shows my car has a 2310 base weight, however, I am at 2375 with no driver. Do I get to subtract points?

Inflation has pushed ribbon prices up considerably, at least $1.

No bonus point for a fat car.
Although the GGR rules did allow for negative points for automatic transmissions in cars like 944 & 928 and Tiptronics.

The 200 pound rule only applies to SC (official forum disclaimer- only kidding)

Greg