2005 auto-x/TT rules

[Bob Gagnon]

I know this question is for Steve G. and he can correct my errors if any.

The German "DIN Curb Weight" is for a car that has it's tank 90% full of gas.

The RSA at 2954 pounds represents an RSA car without the Sun Roof, Radio and A/C options.

Therefore an un-optioned RSA would start with a 77 pound weight reduction for the purposes of classification.

Technically if an RSA has these options it comes out weighing in at about the C2's 3031 pounds.

The RSA wing actually adds 9.5 pounds and the rear Luggage Dump weighs in at about what the removed seats weighed.

So, when an RSA is optioned up the only weight saving features are the lack of power steering and the light door panels.

The question is what do the Sunroof, A/C and Radio add back in weight as individual options?

[David J Marguglio]

Bob:

That was my point exactly! However, Steve's response...

If you actually read the rule!!!! It specifically stated the owners manual. Base 964 not and of the other models.

Indicates to me that we are going by the 964 manual and we, therefore incur an automatic weight penalty.

[Steve Grosekemper]

You are all very close...However you are forgetting one huge factor!
The cars don't really weigh what Porsche says they weigh.
They are usually heavier.

I keep records of all corner balances that I do on my computer and just went through them to see what kind of numbers I could find.

Remember, I work on cars that are not in PCA also so any similarities to actual PCA members is purely coincidental.

One car, an RSA owned by (Let's call him Mr. Bean) is fully optioned and weighs 3023.
Another car a 1990 C-4 owned by (Let's call him Mr. Cousteau) weighs in at 3060.

In this case only 40 pound separates the lightest and heaviest models.

On the other hand another customer (Let's call him Mr. Pinahaus) has a 964 that weighs in at only 2*60 pounds.... I'm not stupid)

So if you want to know what it weights, get it weighed. Most good shops have scales. Black forest an Dieters do.

I will talk to john about comparing our scales.

[bryanearll]

It would be pretty entertaining to bring out a portable scale.

I would note that the fastest times in Tim's 944 Spec cars were made by lighter drivers.

I guess I will need to start pulling the spare out of my 996 to make up for the spare I have around the middle.

[MikeD]

One car, an RSA owned by (Let's call him Mr. Bean) is fully optioned and weighs 3023.
Another car a 1990 C-4 owned by (Let's call him Mr. Cousteau) weighs in at 3060.

In this case only 40 pound separates the lightest and heaviest models.

Wouldn't the lightest 964 be a zero optioned RSA though?

[MikeD]

I guess I will need to start pulling the spare out of my 996 to make up for the spare I have around the middle.

I've been doing that for the last 2 years. Hasn't seemed to help

[Steve Grosekemper]

Yes Mike that is correct.
I was speakling the the common mis-conception that all RSA's are some sort of featherlight racer.

[bryanearll]

Settle it on game day!! One scale for the driver and one scale for the car:

http://www.usedscales.com/race_car_scales.htm

[Bob Gagnon]

My friend tells me POC rules account for car and driver weight to classify car.

[Steve Grosekemper]

Bob,

Your friend must be running for office
POC weight rules are very complex.
See page 26 of the GCR's

http://www.porscheclub.com/pdf/2005/200 ... 010405.PDF

Only the cup race weight includes the driver.

[mnettles]

Sorry Steve. See page 26, last paragraph of the POC 2005 GCR's (starts with ***Official Cup Race and Time Trial "off the track weight".....). POC rules are confusing but Bob is right- driver weight is included in the weight calculation for "Prepared" and above classes for both Time Trials AND club races. When you consider the small modifications required to get to "Prepared" with POC (like lightweight flywheels, chips, wheel widths, shock upgrades, lowering springs, etc....) many cars end up there (or higher)

mj

Believe me, I've studied these rules, especially as they pertain to KP class......

[martinreinhardt]

I agree there should be a minimum car weight at any time of the event - driver and car fluids included. This could make things complicated because we will need paid tech inspectors after that.

Thank God this rule doesn't apply for 2005.

Technically, an RSA should cost 5pts for weight removal, plus they have a M030 stock advantage vs. a stock C2. But, I also really don't believe there is much weight difference (if any) between most RSA and C2's, mainly because PCNA Sales added most options back to the car

David's car is one of the first full delete options RSA I have seen so far, so 5pts for you my friend

[Bob Gagnon]

The only way to *really* do it is to weigh the car at a given fuel load and in the condition it is to be raced in.

Then use the owners manual's specified weight as a reference point and tally up the points for any weight less than the manual's specification (this begs the question can one take reverse points if their car comes out heavier than the manual spec?).

Then maybe factor in the driver's weight if the rules change and add or subtract points for that.

Note that timed runs should be done with the same fuel load as the car was weighed for classification.

So, we should have a scale and weigh each car (and driver?) as it comes off the track after timed runs

[Steve Grosekemper]

This thread has really gotten out of hand.
If you have an idea for a rules change submit it to the Zone 8 rules proposal page.

It is not too early.

http://www.pca.org/zone8/rules_discussi ... sPage1.htm

If you have a question of discussion about the 2005 rules as they are feel free to post it here. One thing you must remember is this is not F-1 or even Club Racing. We are just a bunch of friends who like to drive their Porsches fast.

Rules must make sense and most importantly be reasonably easy to enforce. The club is not going to buy a set of $3000 scales and ramps. They are not going to get a 4 person staff to weigh each car everytime it finishes a run session.

If you are getting beaten by 1-1/2 seconds by the other guy it is probably because he/she is a better driver, not because they are running with 8 gallons less fuel than you are.

Quit dwelling on a silly rule change and get more seat time!
Drive people Drive!

[bryanearll]

Spoken with the clarity of someone who drives a dominating AR 914 racecar!!! Yep, it is about the driver. After all, you clocked the competition in the Comeau Challenge. Smile... And CERTAINLY no disrespect, just laughs... I'm still a NEWBIE who overdrives his car.

You know I have to laugh because after years of competitive cycling (bicycles) there is such similarity in the competitive fire and discussion, not to mention the technique and drive; how many of you can claim that you actually have an $7000 bicycle? (ostensibly for competitiveness sake) (I freely admit to getting dropped (smoked) in 21 races last year) Did the fine quality of the ride, the intricate sewing of the trousers, the super sticky rubber, make an iota of difference in the race? NOPE, the fact that the 27 year old greyhounds I was racing against were 40 pounds LIGHTER (*and 15-20 years younger) meant that their strength to weight ratio was better than mine. Hell their 20 something year old girlfriends, all with stones in their bellybuttons I'm sure, standing by the finish line should have been motivation enough for me to do well, right? Smiles......

OK, yeah Steve is right, the thread is hopelessly off base but you know it's been a good all day thread. Steve, BTW, thanks for the e-mail on the sway bars...
Bryan