Autocross Results May 7th, 2010

[martinreinhardt]

I uploaded the AX results: Congratulation to Erik for TTOD and Keith for winning the BRI

Results: http://results.pcasdr.org/event_standings.php?time_format=0&database=&event_date=2011-05-07

BRI: http://results.pcasdr.org/event_bri_standings.php?time_format=0&database=&event_date=2011-05-07

[ttweed]

I uploaded the AX results.

Thanks for getting the results up so quickly once again, Martin, especially on the days when I can't stay to the bitter end and see the final results at the track. Too many fast cars and drivers came out yesterday for me to get anywhere near the top 10 again, though.

I can see that there is another father/son battle besides the Kinninger's where youth and talent is overcoming age and cunning--it looks like Peter Middleton beat Don by over a second in II class.

It was good to see Dan A. and Mick R. come down from up north, but they are both DNR in the results? What happened guys?

That was an awful fast track--I spent more time on it in third gear than any AX course I have ever run, and I have NEVER been in third gear before the first turn at an AX before. We all like fast and open courses, they're great fun (until, as John Straub would say, "somebody puts their eye out.") But drag strip starts are hard on the equipment, and fast finishes with little runoff before the K-rail makes for some flat-spotted tires and DNFs that might be avoided by a little more conventional and conservative course design, perhaps? Just a thought. The last two courses have had very quick finishes, and been really difficult for the fastest cars to get slowed down enough to make the quick turns into the hot pits that have been laid out.

I enjoyed seeing Randy Wells from the PNW out running with us yesterday, co-driving Nick Psyllos' car. He is a fantastic photographer and writer--many of you may have seen some of his images and read some of his articles in Excellence and other magazines over the years. He is also a very accomplished autocrosser, having placed highly in national SCCA events in his 911 over the years. Check out his blog sometime at http://randywells.com/blog/, and definitely follow the links to some of his images.

Thanks to the whole autox team for another great event!
TT

[Mmagus]

Great driving everyone! It was a tough day as even after carfully laying the course, the surface just kept exploding on us. It also seemed that after a full day with not many spins, many folks felt that the could magicly just get faster and still hold those lines in Timed runs and it was a spin fest. lol I know that all set us behind on time but you were all very patient and flexible and I thank you for it. I hope everyone had fun.

Keith congrats for hitting a couple of goals, BRI #1 and catching the time of that foe of yours!

For me the amazing thing (in both a good and bad way) is that TWO GSS drivers were in the Top Five BRI, Jerry B. in #2 and Mark B in #4!!! Not sure if I need to put this reaction or this one

I let myself get a bit hopeful as I layed down a 1:15.36 time in my first practice and no one in my class was within 3 seconds of it. Tuffy was prepped right, the tires were new and properly broken in. In second session I was still logging repeated 1:15's. Could this be it...the day I FINALLY land in #1 spot in my class? Then something clicked for both Jerry and Mark and they layed down those amazing times, while my times got worse. The really painful, though VERY informative thing I found out, is that its not the car....its me.

So, Duncan family... Mark R....Keith... Kinninger Clan...Paul Y....Jackie...Leigh...and all you other go fast gurus. LOOK OUT! I am going to be knocking at your doors seeking instuction.

Jerry, Mark, I'm not givving up.

I gunning for you both!

Mark
AX Whippingboy

[Mmagus]

I uploaded the AX results.

Thanks for getting the results up so quickly once again, Martin, especially on the days when I can't stay to the bitter end and see the final results at the track. Too many fast cars and drivers came out yesterday for me to get anywhere near the top 10 again, though.

I can see that there is another father/son battle besides the Kinninger's where youth and talent is overcoming age and cunning--it looks like Peter Middleton beat Don by over a second in II class.

It was good to see Dan A. and Mick R. come down from up north, but they are both DNR in the results? What happened guys?

That was an awful fast track--I spent more time on it in third gear than any AX course I have ever run, and I have NEVER been in third gear before the first turn at an AX before. We all like fast and open courses, they're great fun (until, as John Straub would say, "somebody puts their eye out.") But drag strip starts are hard on the equipment, and fast finishes with little runoff before the K-rail makes for some flat-spotted tires and DNFs that might be avoided by a little more conventional and conservative course design, perhaps? Just a thought. The last two courses have had very quick finishes, and been really difficult for the fastest cars to get slowed down enough to make the quick turns into the hot pits that have been laid out.

I enjoyed seeing Randy Wells from the PNW out running with us yesterday, co-driving Nick Psyllos' car. He is a fantastic photographer and writer--many of you may have seen some of his images and read some of his articles in Excellence and other magazines over the years. He is also a very accomplished autocrosser, having placed highly in national SCCA events in his 911 over the years. Check out his blog sometime at http://randywells.com/blog/, and definitely follow the links to some of his images.

Thanks to the whole autox team for another great event!
TT

Tom,

Thanks for the suggestions. The "hope" of the start was not to create a drag strip, but rather to let people take off gently, we put timeing at a longer distance from the start line than usual, and hoped to let them get their cars going and settled in before diving into a turn. I will adjust next time. As to the finish...last month I beg to differ. For the safety of the timing equipment we try to finish on a straight, and there was a lot of run off space. This month we struggled with the finish, I admit, we changed the finish three times from the first drawn design, though to my knowledge we only had one car out of 111 DNF after finish. Again, I am taking notes and will adjust the design next month

Lastly, I say this to all you good forum folks, not in a defensive manner, but so that we are as safe and fun as possible. I send the track to Safety, the CDI Team, and the other AX Guru's before posting it. Then we try to get it posted early for preview, this month was a bit tight. I recieved 0, Zero, None, nada, ziltch, comments on possible issues with the design. If you see something that raises a flag in your minds, Please, please, please, let me know. Change before throwing the track is fairly simple, but gets much more complicated the day of the event, especially if we have to throw the track on Saturday morning.

Thanks so much for the thoughts, I take them seriously, and will strive to do better!

Cheers
Mark
AX Whippingboy

[jenniferreinhardt]

Firstly, thank you to the AX team and all the volunteers for a job well done!

We all like fast and open courses, they're great fun (until, as John Straub would say, "somebody puts their eye out.") But drag strip starts are hard on the equipment, and fast finishes with little runoff before the K-rail makes for some flat-spotted tires and DNFs that might be avoided by a little more conventional and conservative course design, perhaps? Just a thought. The last two courses have had very quick finishes, and been really difficult for the fastest cars to get slowed down enough to make the quick turns into the hot pits that have been laid out.

I agree Tom. I had a very hard time stopping past the finish. Luckily the Cayman has great brakes compared to the scary 964 brakes. I don't think we could have stopped without blowing through the cones in that car. And, I will never slow down before the finish.

Martin changed the car set-up 2 times yesterday so that made for an interesting drive. He sure keeps me on my toes, especially difficult with all the many challenging off-camber decreasing radius turns we had.

Congrats to all on the fast and competitive times!

[gocart]

Another classic autocross. We should thank the autocross teem and everyone who helped out. There was a lot of hard work put in to pull off such a great event.

I must admit that I was a little skeptical of the track layout upon seeing the map. But after a couple of laps it became evident that it was a fun, challenging, and surprisingly fast. I think I finally figured it out on my last timed run.

I know others will disagree, but I find it cool having a few "other cars" in the mix. Gives us a chance to show those other guys what's up.

My only suggestion is we should have a penalty for cones on the timed run warmup lap. I picked up more cones during the red group's warmup lap than during their laps that were timed.

[NickP]

Yesterday was my third autocross event, and it was by far the best. I really feel like a rookie and am amazed at how fast you guys and girls can scoot around those tracks. Initially I thought the track was going to be too fast for my comfort zone but as the day progressed I felt better and better with each practice session.

I have been warmly welcomed by so many of you at these events and that also adds to the enjoyment. I've been very fortunate to have had Adam Gill as my instructor for these past 3 events and he has tremendously helped me improve each time out. The club is fortunate to have him as an instructor and as one of the CDI's next year. I am benefitting from his calm, technical and positive style of instruction.

I was also happy to host Randy Wells and invite him to co-drive my car. Having him drive my car while I rode shotgun was also a good learning tool. He and Adam sure like to hang the rear end of these 993's out there and have a pretty similar approach to going fast; different styles but similar approach. Randy enjoyed seeing a few familiar faces and to meeting the San Diego crowd. He's off this AM to shoot John Straub's early 911. I took him to Fidel's last night for quintessential San Diego Mexican food. He says he will come again.

I also thought the run out space after the finish was too short. From a newbies perspective it was a bit hairy gunning it though the finish with a left turn that close and a concrete wall not far behind that. Other than that, I thought the track was great.

I'll be back, and thanks again.

Nick

[Don Middleton]

...I can see that there is another father/son battle besides the Kinninger's where youth and talent is overcoming age and cunning--it looks like Peter Middleton beat Don by over a second in II class.

Tom, we never got the setup right, but with a little advice, Peter got the most out of the car. It was a really learning experience for me. He was doing just what I told him - take what the car will give you. I, on the other hand, tried to go faster by pushing where the car couldn't. Next time, I'll try to remember my own lessons. But, either way, by finding the best line for the setup we had, Peter reminded me of some old lessons while also showing a bit of a natural talent.

[Don Middleton]

Great driving everyone! It was a tough day as even after carfully laying the course, the surface just kept exploding on us. It also seemed that after a full day with not many spins, many folks felt that the could magicly just get faster and still hold those lines in Timed runs and it was a spin fest. lol I know that all set us behind on time but you were all very patient and flexible and I thank you for it. I hope everyone had fun...

Mark, tough day with the track surface, and the timing system didn't help with a series of false starts. But, it was great track, fast and technical. I can't remember a better one. Thanks for a great effort in putting on a fun AX.

[ttweed]

As to the finish...last month I beg to differ. For the safety of the timing equipment we try to finish on a straight, and there was a lot of run off space.

Finishing on a straight is a fine idea to protect the timing equipment, but the length of that straight and the possible speed through the final turn before the finishing straight is critical. They must be gauged to the capabilities of the fastest cars (with the least experienced drivers) running. Last month, my student had an RX-7 Mazda with an LS6 SBC V-8 in it (430HP in a 2300 lb. car on street tires w/ marginal brakes). The torque of that car allowed him such a squirt of speed out of the last turn to the finish line that he could not easily slow down enough before the right turn back to the grid. I finally told him that he would probably have to lift before the finish line in order to stay on the course after the finish and not DNF or hit cones. I almost went off myself the first time I went through the lights at speed and did not immediately threshold brake to "whoa up" enough, and then still had to trail brake through the turn to make it, so I don't agree that last month's course was a whole lot better. It didn't have any K-rail behind it though, just much softer spectators.

This month we struggled with the finish, I admit, we changed the finish three times from the first drawn design, though to my knowledge we only had one car out of 111 DNF after finish.

You must mean in timed runs only one car DNF'd? I was parked down by the finish, and all day in practice cars without ABS were locking brakes after the finish and running down and through the cones on the outside of the left turn leading to the grid. For several practice sessions, no one even picked up the downed cones there as they were hit so often. I agree that there was probably enough runoff after the cones to prevent anyone from hitting the K-rail unless they had total brake failure or brain fade (which can't really be planned for in any case). But even with my little 180HP/2300lb. car I was still trail braking to make it around that turn, even after threshold braking immediately after the finish. IMHO, the final turn was just too fast. Either the radius of that turn needed to be reduced to lower entry and cornering speed, or the timing lights needed to be moved up the course 15 or 20' to reduce the acceleration distance after the exit and before the finish, which would have also increased the straight-line braking zone. With lower cornering speed in the final corner, you don't need as much distance to the timing lights to protect them from a car that spins there, as they won't slide as far because they are going slower when they lose control. That last turn should probably be the slowest one on the course, just to "whoa" drivers up before the finish naturally, and save the threshold braking for the long straightaways instead of after the lights.

Lastly, I say this to all you good forum folks, not in a defensive manner, but so that we are as safe and fun as possible. I send the track to Safety, the CDI Team, and the other AX Guru's before posting it. Then we try to get it posted early for preview, this month was a bit tight. I recieved 0, Zero, None, nada, ziltch, comments on possible issues with the design. If you see something that raises a flag in your minds, Please, please, please, let me know. Change before throwing the track is fairly simple, but gets much more complicated the day of the event, especially if we have to throw the track on Saturday morning.

My intentions in offering these comments are only meant to be positive and helpful. The last thing I want to do is make you defensive about the great job you are doing for the club, or to dampen your considerable and commendable enthusiasm for designing and managing fun courses and events for us to run, in what is undeniably a deteriorating venue. Your contributions are greatly appreciated. I would suggest, though, that it is difficult if not impossible to make such comments or suggestions before the track is thrown. The only way to gauge the "finer" safety parameters of a track is to drive it at speed. Judging things from a map or drawing can tell you basic things like distances to fixed obstacles, etc., but it is very difficult to tell ahead of actually driving the course with some race pace what the dynamics will be. This is normally only done by the safety chairs right before the event starts, and it is really their responsibility to bring these issues to light. By the time an ordinary competitor like me gets to try the course at speed and make suggestions, it is past the time when you can easily make changes. A tried and true strategy for avoiding these kinds of issues is to put a fairly "kinky" turn right before the finish, and also shortly after the start (so drivers are not tempted to be speed-shifting through second and third gears before entering the first brake zone at 50mph with cold pads). We seem to be trending away from this past practice.

Speaking of changes, when there is a major adjustment of the course done to avoid surface break-up, etc., which seems to be getting more and more common, are we still doing a thorough job of informing folks about it? This should include a PA announcement as well as a warning by the starter to each driver after the change is made. I am just mentioning this because I did not hear anything about the change to the downhill "S" turns before I arrived there the first time, and was a little surprised to find that what had been a couple of third-gear sweepers were turned into a second-gear chicane! I realize we get a warm-up lap before our timed runs and can do it at "reconnaissance" speeds, but I tend to push a little harder on that lap to get tire and brake temps up before the first timed run (without hitting any cones. hopefully!) Maybe I missed the PA announcement when I was warming my car up for the session? This is why a followup warning from the starter is always helpful.

Thanks for all you do for the club, Mark! (and your fantastic attitude about being the AX Whippingboy)
TT

[ttweed]

He was doing just what I told him...

And if he is anything like I was as a youth, it might seem like this was the ONLY time he ever did what you told him to do...

TT

[lrayner]

Personally, I think the monday morning quarterbacking on the forum (even though it is only Sunday) is not the best way to address perceived safety issues. General design suggestions perhaps. I liked this track because so many of us were struggling to try and figure it out. "Where were you shifting into 3rd? " And it seemed like every lap, I was trying something a little different (well, that or I couldn't remember how I'd done it last time ). Great job Mark in soldiering on through a day with a few hiccups and making it happen.
Cheers, Leigh

[JERRY B]

Anyone that notices a safety issue should immediately report it to any of the chairs, We're all safety officers, and need to look out for each other

[Kim Crosser]

I don't think the finish was really a safety issue. The problem was getting stopped/turned before you ran into cones. Even in my Boxster, I was getting into the ABS after the finish.
The fellow that DNF'ed after the finish wasn't aware that cones after the finish counted, and said he was trying to avoid flat-spotting his tires by locking up the brakes.
The finish isn't any different than any other part of the course - if you go too fast on a straight into a turn, you are going to eat cones or DNF anywhere out there. Finish or not, you need to balance speed against your ability to complete the next turn. The K-rail in front gave you an interesting perspective, but it wasn't really a factor.

[hmeeder]

said he was trying to avoid flat-spotting his tires by locking up the brakes.

Uh, what? Every time I've ever done it I've ended up with flat-spotted tires. As they say "I think you are doing it wrong"

Granted my car doesn't have the huevos that many of the other cars do, but I still found myself having to aggressively modulate the brakes after the finish. The little but of washboard right after the lights upset the car just as I was getting into the binders and contributed to some braking inconcistency. ABS was made for the guy in the RX-7 if he thinks that standing on the middle pedal is the only way he knows how to stop his car. He should get him some or practice threshold braking. A lot.

I loved the jump at the hill at turn 4. The underpowered cars really suffer climbing that damned hill when we put the conventional hairpin down there. Being able to carry speed into the climb is a key component to a good lap at the "Q" for me. Kudos for that!