X CARS

[JERRY B]

Ok Everybody it is time to voice your opinion about X cars, Dont be shy.
Just rember without the 24 X cars yesterday, We would have lost money on this event.
Also we would have to reduce the track by 1/3 due to the lack of corner workers
your turn.
Jerry

[Sawfish]

Since you asked, Is the issue X cars or non-members running X cars or both?
Perhaps a better understanding of the fixed costs would help people like myslef to formulate an opinion or foster ideas for securing funds while remaining a Porsche event.
Chris

[Kim Crosser]

My $0.02.

Financial: The cost to run an AX at the stadium begins with the fixed costs - $2000 for stadium rental, $230 (or so) for port-a-potties, $100-150 for ice, $300-400 for water/soda/other, $85-170 for truck rental/gas, $400 for season trophy fees. So - minimum event cost is almost $3000. When you add in the amortized replacement and maintenance costs for radios, timing equipment (displays, T-Link units, wireless interfaces, computers), flags, extinguishers, and all the other equipment we use, the average cost of an AX is really over $4000.
If we have 90 drivers (like yesterday), we can just about break even at $45/driver. With only 70-75 PCA members driving yesterday, we would need to charge at least $53-57/person to try to break even over the year.
Obviously, sponsorship helps to reduce that break-even point.

Logistics: In order to run a decent track in the West Lot, we generally need a minimum of 11-12 corner workers in each session (corners plus gate). Times 6 sessions = 66-72 people doing corner work. Except that doesn't count instructors who have to go out with their students, AX chairs doing double duty already, people with various injuries or physical issues, etc. We really need around 90+ drivers to do all the corner working without having some people doing double corner-working stints AND requiring everyone to work corners, even if they might otherwise get a pass due to their other duties. Yesterday, if we had only 72 drivers, a lot of corner workers would have been run into the ground.
So - more than the financial aspect, we really need a bare minimum of 85-90 attendees to hold an AX.

If we were getting over 100 PCA members at an AX, then I would say we should be limiting the X cars. As long as we are getting fewer than 80 PCA members attending, I would encourage us to continue to invite the X cars to join us.

By they way, for those members who didn't hang around after the event yesterday, there were at least 8 of the X-car group that stayed to help pack and hang with us through the awards. I believe a higher percentage of the X-car group stayed and helped than of the PCA members...

[jenniferreinhardt]

My $0.02.
By they way, for those members who didn't hang around after the event yesterday, there were at least 8 of the X-car group that stayed to help pack and hang with us through the awards. I believe a higher percentage of the X-car group stayed and helped than of the PCA members...

I picked up the track, but left before the awards because our events have been running longer - perhaps due to our parade laps and 5 practice laps(?) So, that may be the same for others who left.

Noticed that the member and X car groups are getting more familiar with e/o and friendlier, feeling part of the group. this should be encouraged because we can drive with SCCA anytime.

[jenniferreinhardt]

My $0.02.
Financial: The cost to run an AX at the stadium begins with the fixed costs - $2000 for stadium rental, $230 (or so) for port-a-potties, $100-150 for ice, $300-400 for water/soda/other, $85-170 for truck rental/gas, $400 for season trophy fees. So - minimum event cost is almost $3000. When you add in the amortized replacement and maintenance costs for radios, timing equipment (displays, T-Link units, wireless interfaces, computers), flags, extinguishers, and all the other equipment we use, the average cost of an AX is really over $4000.
If we have 90 drivers (like yesterday), we can just about break even at $45/driver. With only 70-75 PCA members driving yesterday, we would need to charge at least $53-57/person to try to break even over the year.
Obviously, sponsorship helps to reduce that break-even point.

Our Board is encouraging member's thoughts on Non-Member X-Cars at the AX. At the next board meeting, they ask that specific positive solutions be brought forward and developed by a consensus.

Here is some food for thought...

Keep X-Cars, charge them more than just $5 since we all have to pay membership dues, and our club resources - specifically Instructors and other Volunteer time are being used for them.

Poll our Instructors if they mind instructing non-Porsche Students.

Limit the amount of X-Cars as the BMW club does - in increments of 10 at a time - according to the $ and Corner Working # break-even rule.

Promote more members coming to our AX.

Educate on rules/policies and encourage a friendly team approach between Members and Non-Members so that we continue to feel like a cohesive group

No Non-PCASDR Members X Cars on our Forum. That is a member benefit.

Cut out soda, gatorade and water for people during the day. Have water for corner workers only. Continue to supply some ice, alcohol and a few non-alcoholic beverages for the awards gathering - it builds bonds - encourages people to become comfortable and friendlier.

The board has requested your authentic thoughts because important decisions will be made very soon.

[Ted Myrus]

What are we or what do we want to become? Are we a for profit business? Are we a single marque club that is multi-faceted with activities for everyone (AX, TT, DE, Concours, Rally,Tours, Social)? If I'm an SCCA autocross contestant and I'm given the opportunity to run with the Porsche Club for virtually the same cost and I get to run all day, instead of 3 laps, I'm going to jump at the chance. Are we concerned about cost? If we didn't have an event we wouldn't have any financial exposure at all. If we scaled back the event we can control costs. Shorter course, fewer corners, less cones, less corner workers,etc. Bring your own ice, water, shade, etc.

You say that's not us? We pride ourselves on long fast courses and a big field of contestants.
But it doesn't pencil out. When the rent was $1,000 and the entry fee was $35, and we routinely got over 100 cars, and our timing equipment was less costly and more primitive the AX was a good revenue stream, not a cash cow, like some people believed, that supported other club activities. It covered its cost and contributed to the overall Club expenses, but no longer. We need to rethink who is going to play, how many players, how many events, and how much its going to cost to play.

[gocart]

Since you asked. I'm OK having X cars at the autocrosses. I think it's cool to see other cars besides just Porsches at our events.
I was under the impression that non members paid $75 to run. Is that not so?

[JERRY B]

X cars are only $5 more if they pre register, we need to raise this to $10
I talked to some of the X car guys and they are grateful to be running with us ,
And are willing to help out, The guy that flaged at start for 1/2 the day is a S2000 driver

[Kim Crosser]

[Our Board is encouraging member's thoughts on Non-Member X-Cars at the AX. At the next board meeting, they ask that specific positive solutions be brought forward and developed by a consensus.

Keep X-Cars, charge them more than just $5 since we all have to pay membership dues, and our club resources - specifically Instructors and other Volunteer time are being used for them.
KIM - Concur, but this should be an additional fee for all "non-Members". A non-PCA Member driving a Porsche should pay the same as one driving an X-car. A Member driving an X-car should not pay a penalty. I think $10 would be reasonable. Anything over $15 would seem unreasonable to me.

Poll our Instructors if they mind instructing non-Porsche Students.
KIM - I have no problem instructing in an X-car.

Limit the amount of X-Cars as the BMW club does - in increments of 10 at a time - according to the $ and Corner Working # break-even rule.
KIM - Ok, but base it on pre-regs with plenty of time. A member waiting until the day of the event should not have preference over an X-car on that day. (Procrastination should not be rewarded...)

Promote more members coming to our AX.
KIM - This would be ideal. Not sure how many more will show.

Educate on rules/policies and encourage a friendly team approach between Members and Non-Members so that we continue to feel like a cohesive group
KIM - Concur. Encourage the X guys to participate. The 8 X drivers that stayed late to help were all willing to help run the events, and were looking for someone with whom they could be "Associate Members".

No Non-PCASDR Members X Cars on our Forum. That is a member benefit.
KIM - Concur. Only Members should be allowed to post on the Forum. Non-Members can read the postings, but not post themselves.

Cut out soda, gatorade and water for people during the day. Have water for corner workers only. Continue to supply some ice, alcohol and a few non-alcoholic beverages for the awards gathering - it builds bonds - encourages people to become comfortable and friendlier.
KIM - Strongly Disagree. We need to encourage hydration, and that isn't just for the corner workers. Besides, at some point everyone is a corner worker. Continue to provide water and juice drinks through the day.

[Bill]

jenniferreinhardt wrote:
[Our Board is encouraging member's thoughts on Non-Member X-Cars at the AX. At the next board meeting, they ask that specific positive solutions be brought forward and developed by a consensus.

Keep X-Cars, charge them more than just $5 since we all have to pay membership dues, and our club resources - specifically Instructors and other Volunteer time are being used for them.
KIM - Concur, but this should be an additional fee for all "non-Members". A non-PCA Member driving a Porsche should pay the same as one driving an X-car. A Member driving an X-car should not pay a penalty. I think $10 would be reasonable. Anything over $15 would seem unreasonable to me.

BILL: Charge the PCA Member $55-60. An extra $5-$10 for someone with a $$$$ car and spending hundreds of $ on tires, maintenance, etc. should NOT be a problem. For an all day event, this is still a bargain compared to other regions. With 70-75 PCA members for a few extra dollars we might get more run time and keep this as a Porsche event. One of the interesting aspects of these events are to compare your performance with other Porsches - not Buicks, Chevrolets, Fords, Mini's , Corvettes, etc.

Poll our Instructors if they mind instructing non-Porsche Students.
KIM - I have no problem instructing in an X-car.
Bill: Up to the instructors

Limit the amount of X-Cars as the BMW club does - in increments of 10 at a time - according to the $ and Corner Working # break-even rule.
KIM - Ok, but base it on pre-regs with plenty of time. A member waiting until the day of the event should not have preference over an X-car on that day. (Procrastination should not be rewarded...)
Bill: Restrict X-cars to PCA members. If it is felt it is absolutely necessary to include X-cars limit it to no more than 10.

Promote more members coming to our AX.
KIM - This would be ideal. Not sure how many more will show.

Bill: By offering "rides with instructors at 80% speed" for newcomers at special sessions and for some fee I'm sure that it would be possible to convince newcomers to join the fun. The rules preventing this should be changed in a responsible way. AXing is NOT a spectator sport and it is not possible to give people a sense of what it is all about by watching from the sidelines or taking them on a 40 mph ride around a course. If it's not 'safe' for a prospective participant how is it safe for a new and inexperienced 'driver' with an instructor. Just because the passenger has a student wrist band it doesn't make him any different from someone with a 'ride for a fee' wrist band.

Educate on rules/policies and encourage a friendly team approach between Members and Non-Members so that we continue to feel like a cohesive group
KIM - Concur. Encourage the X guys to participate. The 8 X drivers that stayed late to help were all willing to help run the events, and were looking for someone with whom they could be "Associate Members".

Bill: OK if they want to become Associate Members and pay dues otherwise we should have this as a Porsche Club event, not a Race for Profit event.

No Non-PCASDR Members X Cars on our Forum. That is a member benefit.
KIM - Concur. Only Members should be allowed to post on the Forum. Non-Members can read the postings, but not post themselves.

Bill: Absolutely keep the Forum for PCA members.

Cut out soda, gatorade and water for people during the day. Have water for corner workers only. Continue to supply some ice, alcohol and a few non-alcoholic beverages for the awards gathering - it builds bonds - encourages people to become comfortable and friendlier.
KIM - Strongly Disagree. We need to encourage hydration, and that isn't just for the corner workers. Besides, at some point everyone is a corner worker. Continue to provide water and juice drinks through the day.

Bill: Strongly disagree! Other regions do not supply water, sodas, etc. and tell the participants to bring their own. Everyone seems to have their own small cooler and could certainly bring a few bottles of water, etc. This alone would save $400-$550 per AX. If necessary, only provide water to the corner workers.

Corner working problem:
Bill: By very slightly increasing the entrance fee (by $5-$10) and by eliminating the water and sodas there might be enough money to use about 8 paid corner workers for the day. The San Gabriel and other regions use exclusively paid corner workers. I don't know what they would have to be paid but I would guess $8 - $10/hr for 8 hrs might be sufficient which would be a cost of $640 for the day. The savings from water and slightly increased entrance fees would more than cover that. If each of these paid corner workers were then paired with a PCA driver we would need only half as many member corner workers or about 46 people, well within the limits of the 70-75 PCA entrants at the last AX.

X-Car drivers picking up at the end of the day:
While that is nice they did, remember all the work done to set up the track which was done by PCA volunteers.

[jenniferreinhardt]

The issue is for AX - non-members running X-Cars. At the June 4th AX, we had 96 Total Drivers including 22 non-member X Cars. We want to establish a fair system as well as service our members.

Very thoughtful and constructive ideas and opinions are coming in! We need more. - pro or con. It's obvious Porsche owners are passionate about our cars, so let your opinions and ideas flow here...

Yesterday, I heard the current number of AX Drivers to break even financially is 80, but I can't confirm that. Is this at the $50 pre-reg member rate? Would a Board Member, with quick access to the current financials, please confirm this?

[Mmagus]

X-Car drivers picking up at the end of the day:
While that is nice they did, remember all the work done to set up the track which was done by PCA volunteers.

While this is true thus far, it should be noted that three of the X-car participants came to me after the event and asked if it was "ok to come help set up the track on Friday's". It was very nice to hear, and honestly, it would have been even more pleasing had it come from a few of our members. (Please note: I am NOT unhappy with the great help we have been recieving with set up...you all are WONDERFUL for comming out!! Thank you.) I was also aproached with a request to be adopted as an asociate member, with an offer to help pay the yearly membership fee. Had Kari and I not been on a member/family member plan I would have seriously considered gents offer as he was also the one Jerry noted who came and worked the start for 1/2 the day.

I do think we should have a cap, but feel it should be a percentage somehow rather than a set #, though I have no idea how that might work out. As to having non-member x-car drivers, I honestly fluctuate on the topic so will hold off on posting until I am more settled.

Mark

[Steve Grosekemper]

OK- my 2 cents.

Fees-
Additional $10 for non members - This is a huge bargain compared to what SCCA members are paying for each minute of track time and helps offset the fact that they are not paying local dues.

Additional $5 for non P cars. (Yes, that means an additional $15 for non members with X-cars.) Hey, it is a Porsche club event... If you are a member and you want to run your brothers brand new Z06 that's fine, just bring the extra $5. X-Cars take more time to tech and the time of senior tech officials which slows down the entire process. If I had any "issues" with X-Car/non-members they would be fairly well squelched by knowing they were giving us an extra $15 just to hang out with us. I don't, but if I did...

As you can imagine I am a little biased about tech line late fees. So I will try to be PC here. (Taking a breath)
I don't care how long your drive is to the stadium, Mission Hills or Mission Viejo. You know how long it takes to get there; set your alarm accordingly. Traffic is rarely an issue at that time of the morning but if you add a little fudge factor in you will just get through tech earlier and have a more relaxed morning to set up and take the track walk or just chat with your friends. $5 is a slap in the face to the tech personnel. The tech people want to take the track walk and have to deal with their cars too, and they were on site before 6:30. A penalty needs to hurt, if a 90 MPH ticket costs $5, nobody is going to drive 55, $20 for a car in tech after 7:30, no exceptions. If someone shows up after tech is closed (8am) and the tech chair has to go get all the sheets and stickers back out of their stuff it is $30. Repeat offenders within 6 months pay $40 extra. Showing up an hour or more after tech opens (Tech opens at 6:30 BTW) is a clear message that you are under the misconception that your time is of more value than everyone else who managed to get their tail in line before you. Unbelievably disrespectful.
OK- I'm done and stepping off my soap box.

Non members in X-Cars:
I drive a Porsche for many reasons. One is exclusivity, I like having a car not everyone else has. But times change and those who refuse to be flexible will be left in the dust with the dinosaurs. Membership at AX is down and costs are up. If we don't access the situation, adapt to the changes and implement a solution we will parish. I enjoy this club too much for that and see the non-member and x-cars as a real solution to our problem. As a side note I have been in the club since the late 80's and have seen many an x-car driver see the light, buy a Porsche and become a great club volunteer.

When we have 137 Porsches pre register, then that is the time to reassess the situation.
Until then I think we should limit the X-car/non-member AX registrations to a total of 30 changing to 30% when we have over 100 drivers. We used to do 130-150 without even thinking about it.

Club sponsored drinks. The club should supply water bottles under shaded tables for all registered entrants. The cost of ice is just insane and on a cooler winter day it just goes to waste. Hydration is about wet not cold. Everyone can bring a personal cooler or run to get something at lunch break or between runs/corner working. There is also a lunch truck most days so it is less than 10-minutes for a great breakfast burrito and a coke. Supplying alcohol to a bunch of tired dehydrated drivers with empty stomachs? Really? Can’t believe we actually still do this and haven’t gotten bitten by this one. In the old days when the club served crap in a can brand beer; discerning drivers brought a 6 pack of micro brew to share with their personal competitors. (In a personal cooler) No reason that can’t be done again. Just use what we have until it is gone. If people bring drinks like a potluck this will be a slow transition and we may never run out.

Non-member forum access: This forum was a mess before member only registrations. We needed a way to identify all members of the forum so people didn’t get out of hand breaking the rules with no way to punish/administer bad behavior. PCA national membership numbers were the best way to do this. If we want to include non-members on the forum we can do this with a car number and date code for members who have already run driving events with us. It will not be automatic; these members will have to contact forum administration directly. But that is a board decision. Also anyone can view the forum and anyone can send an email to an event chair for questions or clarifications.
But since we are on the subject of the forum…
If your profile sign-in is not your name you need to have a complete signature on the bottom of your post. Even better is your name and stuff about you, like this:

Steve Grosekemper #97
PCA-SDR Technical Advisor
PCA-SDR Forum-Admin
'83 911SC Cab
'68 912 "Project"
'82 911SC Track Car "Just Test Driving"

This way we know who we are talking to, what they drive, their car number and what they do for the club.
This makes exchanges easier, more friendly and open.

Laps:
Do the track walk and you won’t need a parade lap.
If you want one, jump into a car first session, as long as one driver has a red armband. There are instructors w/o students or without a student in your run group.
5-run practice is too long; 3/3/3 is all that is needed in the winter time and 3/4/3 in the summer. The art of AX is learning the track in the shortest amount of time, SCCA does it in 3 laps!

And last but not least… it is all about the people. And non members are just people who haven’t seen the light yet. Show them the light.

OK – that was probably more than 2 cents…

[Don Middleton]

Fees: +$5 for non-P cars, +$10 for non-members. So, non-member X car pays +$15. Member with an X-car pays +$5. Non-member with P-car pays +$10. Puts the emphasis in all the right places and is very fair.

Forum: no access for non-members. At some point, you've just got to be member.

AX stuff is for another Topic.

[jenniferreinhardt]

What about Non-Members driving X Cars becoming Instructors? Thoughts?

If the non-members shows skill, maturity and commitment to the club, yes.

Should they only instruct X-Cars? Perhaps in the beginning, then later all cars.

Let's face it folks - our Instructors get pulled pretty thin sometimes. I spoke w/ one yesterday who has requested to not instruct at every event for quite a while and his wish was never granted because of student needs. He's a super nice guy and didn't insist for a break. But how long before he gets sick of the club not caring about his wishes and stops driving?

Non-members driving X-cars becoming Instructors would alleviate some of this problem.