X CARS

[Ted Myrus]

Another thought.

Regions get a rebate from National based on their dues paying members. Allowing non- members to participte in a major club activity on a regular basis doesn't make financial sense. Why be a member if you can enjoy the benefits? As a Club we rely on the National kick back. Membership is a good bargin, for about $42 you get a Panorama and Witness and this Forum!

[Carl Scragg]

I want to thank everyone for all the good ideas. This is a positive discussion and I hope this helps everyone sort out their thoughts before the next Board meeting (July 6), so that people will attend with specific suggestions on how we might proceed.

One point that needs to be clarified is the insurance cost of our driving events. For clubs purchasing insurance on an event-by-event basis this can easily rival the facilities cost as the biggest item. Our AX insurance is entirely paid for by PCA National out of club member dues (drivers and non-drivers alike). For time trials, we do pay part of the insurance costs from entry fees, but it is still heavily subsidized from membership dues.

Let's keep the ideas coming. Thanks, Carl

[JERRY B]

Unfortunately the board meeting to discuss the X cars is after the next autocross.
I have this feeling, that all of our regular P cars will be back for the next event, And We Will Have Even More X Cars registered.
So where do we draw the line? Originally our limit was 20 X cars

[Kim Crosser]

When we hit 110+ cars? A few years ago we successfully ran 140 cars with a full 12 laps (4+4+4, plus the usual reruns in timed laps) and finished by 5pm, so 110-120 cars shouldn't be tough to do.
As long as only 70-80 P-cars are showing up, I think we could take up to 30 X cars.

[ttweed]

Regions get a rebate from National based on their dues paying members. Allowing non- members to participte in a major club activity on a regular basis doesn't make financial sense. Why be a member if you can enjoy the benefits? As a Club we rely on the National kick back. Membership is a good bargin, for about $42 you get a Panorama and Witness and this Forum!

The problem is that PCA membership requires $46/yr. (renewed lately, Ted?) plus a Porsche VIN registered in your name. That requirement raises the ante quite a bit. If our membership policy were like the BMWCCA, many of these X-car drivers would join in a heartbeat. They are already seeking affiliate member status in many cases, and are willing to pay the dues, but they can't join without buying a Porsche. I have never owned a BMW, but I joined the BMWCCA when I was running in their events in order to get easier entry and pay less. If we charge these non-members $10-15 more per event than a member, they would be paying the equivalent of a full membership fee extra every 3-4 events, and we would be keeping it ALL, not just a kickback percentage from National. That makes very good financial sense to the club, but is kind of a burn for the people who are willing to join and pay dues but can't because they don't own a P-car.

TT

[jenniferreinhardt]

They are already seeking affiliate member status in many cases, and are willing to pay the dues, but they can't join without buying a Porsche. I have never owned a BMW, but I joined the BMWCCA when I was running in their events in order to get easier entry and pay less. If we charge these non-members $10-15 more per event than a member, they would be paying the equivalent of a full membership fee extra every 3-4 events, and we would be keeping it ALL, not just a kickback percentage from National. That makes very good financial sense to the club, but is kind of a burn for the people who are willing to join and pay dues but can't because they don't own a P-car. TT

I disagree with anybody being able to join the Porsche club. This is not a region rule and obviously National wants you to own a Porsche to join if they require VIN #'s.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Unfortunately the board meeting to discuss the X cars is after the next autocross.
I have this feeling, that all of our regular P cars will be back for the next event, And We Will Have Even More X Cars registered.
So where do we draw the line? Originally our limit was 20 X cars

1. snowball effect
(adj.) descriptive of an entity or situation where something once small and relatively insignificant grows exponentially at a swift pace, engulfing everything in its path. The snowball accumulates not only size, but speed.


SORRY Jerry, I just couldn't resist inserting a bit of humor

[martinreinhardt]

Agreed. Are we trying to become "Father Joe's Auto Club of America?

[M-tinker]

As a PCA member, ex-Pcar owner, currently driving a X car, I'd share my 2c from both Pcar and Xcar perspective

I did a couple of AX with PCA almost 10 years back with my 911SC. My experience was not so great due to the "exclusive" atmosphere at the events. It's not just about P vs non-P cars, but I felt exclusion as a newbie also. Sadly I left and joined BMWCCA and eventually sold the SC. Until recent years I started joining PCA doing DEs, TT, and returned to AX this past weekend for the first time. First off you guys really put out awesome events. The AX track is one of the most technical tracks I've driven. The TT program is challenging and fun. More importantly, there is no longer a feeling of exclusiveness. It's been replaced by friendly people who love the sport and love cars for their technical excellence. I'm grateful that you allow my BMW in your playing field, and I hope you continue to do so in your policy.

What I'm trying to say is a great car club is all about its people IMO. The ways it treats non-members have direct influence on attracting people who want to be a member, and to some extent, who want to buy a Pcar to join the club. Or the opposite can also be true. With my experience with this club, I found myself wanting a Pcar more and more, so here one positive example Until I find a Pcar, I'm willing to pay extra $$, work at the course, whatever it takes to get my BMW on the track.

Thanks for listening.

-Fred Yip

[JERRY B]

Thanks for your input Fred, Maybe Someday We Can Win You Back
One of these days we need to do a joint BMW /Porsche club event, We keep talking about it, But nothing has materialized yet
We have a tentative date of July 2 for our next autocross, Hope to see you there

[Mmagus]

Thanks for your input Fred, Maybe Someday We Can Win You Back
One of these days we need to do a joint BMW /Porsche club event, We keep talking about it, But nothing has materialized yet
We have a tentative date of July 2 for our next autocross, Hope to see you there

I FULLY agree Jerry!

I know that our club had a joint Porsche-BMW Octoberfest in the past. When I talked with the BMW gent at the Ax date grabbing meeting he seemed interested in renewing that event. Perhaps now is the time?

[M-tinker]

I'm already back

And cheers to the joint BMW/Pcar event How about another Chuckwalla clockwise counter-clockwise double header?

-Fred Yip

[stevemckay]

Why dont we create a committee to revamp all of these procedures with guidelines from the board.This is probably the way of the future,just as the business world has had to reshape itself we should also do the same.We have had low turn out numbers for at least a year except one or two events. If we want to keep our a/x events at the level they are we need to look out side for at least the time being.Maybe at some later date we could reassess and then and adjust the procedures back to club only events. Steve Mc Kay

[pecivil]

Fred I hear you. Apparently though we cant still keep membership after we sold our Pcar. I have kept mine because I love the club and just keep paying the dues. Lets hope this thread does not get us "turned in" to national now that we are "outted". But I also am very grateful to be allowed to run my Lotus with PCA. Again, their events are superb, fun, and the people are great. For sure I will have another Porsche in my stable at some point (and I take this opportunity to offer my elise in trade for a 996 GT3 if there are any willing donors... )

But I think there are 2 things going on here. 1 thing is do the events need to be "subsidized" by non Pcar attendance to be viable, both financially, and quality wise. It seems that for AutoX, they do. At least currently. Since X cars seem to always be welcome at the DE/TT events, and encouraged even, I guess that either they are also necessary to help the events, or that the track guys just like track cars regardless of make. I dunno. I know the 2 guys who run the TT program each drive a Lotus at the events, not a Porsche. Everyone seems ok with it.

Thing 2 has nothing to do with financial issues, but everything to do with that ever elusive phrase "Exclusivity". The exclusivity of Porsche ownership, and exclusivity of being in a Porsche only car club that only has Porsche cars at its events. Key word here is "Exclusive". It makes me ponder on the Motto "its the people, not the cars" PCA likes to use. If I bought a 914 wreck for $500 and now have a vin for honest PCA membership has anything really changed? If I did so, but still came to events in the lotus, there would still be people who wouldn't like it. Not trying to cast a finger, just recognizing reality.

BMWCCA allows non owners to join and participate because they feel it helps the club, and gets people to become owners of BMW's. Key word here is "Inclusive". Different philosophies I reckon.

Whats so funny to me is how similar both clubs are on the ground. I have been a BMWCCA member for 12 years, and PCA for 7, and again, Car guys are car guys for the most part. We all like to drive fast, have fun, and drool over cool cars.

[MR LIPP]

Peter and I ran many DEs with BMWCCA and X cars invited. We had no issues with any of them. They played nice, drove well and commented on how organized PCA was to run with. We were always worried about the bottom line on events and were happy to have X car participation.

I have run my Z06 and GT3 with BMWCCA and always felt welcome and there with no negative vibes from anybody. However, I have met Porsche cars/drivers at BMW events that have reported "frosty" welcome at PCA-SDR. In this economy, the attitude of "you are lucky that we allow you to run with us" will only drive away good participants and they will vote with their dollars.

My suggestion to the X car naysayers is that they should run an event that is subject to financial loss or let them "support" the event with a generous donation.

Now that's just my 2 cents...