Double Time AX

[Bill]

Mark or Jerry,

Is there any reason why someone cannot sign up twice for an AX, pay twice the fee, and be assigned in two different groups? They could then get four practice sessions (two in each color group) and two timed sessions (two color groups)! I would go for this and people coming from a distance might also. Has this ever been tried? The only concession would be only one corner working session required, perhaps made up for by volunteering in other areas - track setup, start, etc. Would be an easy way to increase 'attendance' and income with no extra effort.

-Bill Ripka

[Mmagus]

I have no idea if its been tried before Bill. Perhaps those who have been around for a longer time can chime in. On the surface of things it looks almost do-able. I do see at least a couple glitches, and they are fairly significant.

As you mentioned corner working is one. The person would get no special treatment for corner working, they would have to work their session, a difficulity could be that if their time came during a run session in their "second color". With all that our reg folks have on them balancing instructors, students, driver/car numbers, walk ups, late arrivals and more...tring to fit a person to still work corners and be in two groups might be a bit much. I guess if they were willing to miss a run session if they happened to be corner working...but that opens the possibility of not feeling that they got what they paid for, or last minute attmpts to switch corner working times.

The other is timed runs. Yes, its just a $.50 ribbon, but there are also points that build up throughout the season. I would not approve two timed run groups, its unfair to have twice the chances to beat others in your class.

With just these two possibilities it seems like more headache than I would care to add to an event, and I am probably missing other issues. I might also be missing easy solutions as well I admit.

I DO like that you are tossing out ideas and thinking outside the box. Positive change and growth come from brainstorming.

Thanks!
Mark

[Sawfish]

I'll try it!
Chris

[martinreinhardt]

See rules page 3: http://zone8.pca.org/rules/2011/2011Z8Rules.pdf

D. An entrant may drive more than one car. However, they must use the same car throughout an assigned run session. For Autocross & Time Trial, drivers of multiple cars will not be assigned extra run sessions, so that all entrants will be entitled to approximately the same amount of track time. Only one car may be used during timed runs. This car is the official entry and must be classified correctly. Regions may impose additional entry fees for the privilege of driving multiple cars. If an entrant’s official entry becomes disabled he/she may substitute a car of a lesser or equal class if competing for award points. If the entrant chooses to change classes as a result of changing cars, he/she will not receive any trophies or award points in the original class.

[Mmagus]

Thanks Martin!

So, multi cars yes...

Multi run sessions no.

[Don Middleton]

...Multi run sessions no.

Not so fast. We've got non-members running non-Porsches for "economic" reasons. If we had a dozen or so members paying double to have double practice, there would be a substantial economic benefit. One set of timed runs and 2 sets of practice doesn't seem like it shouldn't be considered.

Yes, it puts more emphasis on $$$ for performance, but there are plenty of other examples of this with regards to various car modifications. Not sure I like it either, but it wouldn't be difficult to do and could be "tested" at an upcoming AX.

Bill, keep stirring the pot...the Forum thrives on it!

[JERRY B]

It looks like he could run twice in X class, Since it is a no-points class
Then we could Say You Have No Class Bill, More Fuel for the Fire

[JERRY B]

Of course a problem might arise when 30 X cars all want to do double sessions.

[Bill]

I'm not a lawyer, and perhaps Martin is, but if I were one, I would say the quote from the 'rules' is clearly not applicable. If one wants to quote 'rules' then it's important to determine exactly what those rules state:

D. An entrant may drive more than one car. However, they must use the same car throughout an assigned run session.

Only one car would be driven in any assigned run session.

For Autocross & Time Trial, drivers of multiple cars will not be assigned extra run sessions, so that all entrants will be entitled to approximately the same amount of track time.

This says nothing about a driver driving the SAME car in extra run sessions. The statement "all entrants will be entitled to approximately the same amount of track time depends on the definition of 'entrants' and 'approximately'. By paying twice you are in fact two 'entrants' by the definition of an entrant paying a fee. There is no definition of 'approximately' and this is open to interpretation. Nothing in the rules quoted says the same person can't be two "entrants".

Only one car may be used during timed runs. This car is the official entry and must be classified correctly.

There would be only ONE car used during the timed runs.

Regions may impose additional entry fees for the privilege of driving multiple cars. If an entrant’s official entry becomes disabled he/she may substitute a car of a lesser or equal class if competing for award points. If the entrant chooses to change classes as a result of changing cars, he/she will not receive any trophies or award points in the original class.

Not relevant to multiple sessions by a single driver in a single car.

In view of this, I'm not sure how Mark can say 'case closed'. The quoted rules simply don't apply or do not directly deal with the issue of one driver as two entrants. I would be willing to concede the two timed runs. As far as Jerry B's claim I have no class he isn't the first one to suggest this. With my times I should have a handicap and be in a class of my own.

-Bill Ripka

[Don Middleton]

Of course a problem might arise when 30 X cars all want to do double sessions.

Then, you've got 30 more entry fees - real money. Even with only 60 P-cars, that's a total of 120 fees with only 90 cars. And, with X-cars paying an extra $10 each, even more $$$ play with. Next thing you know, the club has money again to pay for all sorts of things, like coffee in the morning.

[mrondeau]

http://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8

[ttweed]

Bill,

I believe the intent of the "all entrants will be entitled to approximately the same amount of track time" language in the rules is to level the playing field for points competition in class. Having more "looks" at the course is definitely an advantage for a driver, especially in autox, where learning the best way to get your car around the course quickly is a large part of the challenge. Each practice lap can contribute to figuring out something new to improve your times. Your "rules lawyering" shows that there is a way to interpret the language to give the club "wiggle room" to allow a driver to become two entrants in the same car without violating the letter of Zone 8 rules, but I have to agree with Jerry that these would both have to be "X" entries not running for points in class to be fair to the other entrants. Otherwise, you are perhaps not violating the letter of the rules, but you would be going contrary to the spirit and intent of fair and level competition contained in them.

Other clubs do allow multiple entries by the same driver in the same car, but they are required to complete their timed runs in their first session, with the same number of laps as everyone else, then have their second entry in X class later in the event. Our event structure does not lend itself to this solution, unfortunately, as all our practice sessions are completed before anyone takes their timed runs.

One other "outside the box" revenue strategy adopted by other clubs is to sell "X" runs to drivers after the completion of all timed runs at the end of the day. People can buy "fun runs" for $2-5 each after the competition runs are over. Unfortunately, we use all the available time for our events and don't usually have any extra time to devote to this purpose. It also creates problems regarding who will stay and work corners for the fun runs. Your solution would actually work better within the structure of our events, and I wouldn't see any problem with you even getting two timed sessions as well (6 complete run sessions for two entry fees) but you would have to do it all in X class, IMHO, to be fair to other class competitors. If your intention is just to get more seat time to improve your driving skills and not to get an "edge" on the competition by having extra practice laps, this should be a satisfactory solution for everyone, and a possible increase in revenue for the club. It is definitely an idea worth considering.

TT

[Cajundaddy]

In addition to regular AX at the Q a little seat time in a DE is a great way to explore the limits of your car with 40-50 laps. PCA-GPX is having one at Pomona Fairplex in 2 weeks. Come out and play:
http://gpx.pca.org/Documents/June%2025- ... 0flyer.pdf

[Bill]

Tom:

.... Otherwise, you are perhaps not violating the letter of the rules, but you would be going contrary to the spirit and intent of fair and level competition contained in them.

Ah, now there's the rub. Often when a group doesn't like their own rules/laws they resort to "contrary to the spirit ...". This is even a stickier situation. What is "...intent of fair and level competition...". For example, is it fair that the closest competitor in your class has been racing for 15 or 20 years and overall has far more track time and laps than you? Some legal systems would say that I was a 'disadvantaged minority' and am entitled to special treatment to "...level the competition..". They might even say not only should I be given more practice sessions but also the club should pay me to participate. The SD region is lucky, I'm only asking for more laps that I'll pay for to level the competition.

-Bill

P.S. Dave, I'll be at FairPlex in a few weeks - see you there.

[Mmagus]

Running in the X Class would be a solution I agree. There would still be the possible issue of when the person would corner work, I am not sure how the reg team sets all that up, if it wouldbe an easy thing to put the person in a non-conflicting pattern or if it would really put strain on things?