Double Time AX

[jenniferreinhardt]

If any person drives in 2 groups in one day, they should be excluded from any results listing. It is not fair for the regular classes or the X class.

For example, this numerical overall placement listing of all drivers
http://results.pcasdr.org/event_overall ... 1:11.77-14

Also, they should not be able to get out of corner working 2 shifts. Lots of people have done work for the AX - like our hours in pre-reg, and we still have to work corners, so does logistics, equipment, safety, etc. Oh, yeah, plus some of us are instructing during the day too. What if a student wants to drive 2 run groups... Oh geez!

We are a not for profit group remember?

[ttweed]

Ah, now there's the rub. Often when a group doesn't like their own rules/laws they resort to "contrary to the spirit ...". This is even a stickier situation. What is "...intent of fair and level competition...".

No ruleset can anticipate every possible interpretation of any given section, and most (including ours) deal with this by establishing a regular revision process that clarifies specific provisions when people push into "grey areas." Be careful what you wish for--it may result in a clarification that defines "multiple cars" as including "multiple entries in the same car" in this particular case. Personally, I think it is pretty clear what the intent of the rules is, and that you are stretching the envelope with your interpretation.

For example, is it fair that the closest competitor in your class has been racing for 15 or 20 years and overall has far more track time and laps than you? Some legal systems would say that I was a 'disadvantaged minority' and am entitled to special treatment to "...level the competition..". They might even say not only should I be given more practice sessions but also the club should pay me to participate. The SD region is lucky, I'm only asking for more laps that I'll pay for to level the competition.

So what you are asking for is a second tier of "Newbie Affirmative Action." We already have one tier--it is called "Novice Classes." They are designed to allow inexperienced people to compete with others of the same level of experience for a limited number of events before they must step up and run in the open classes. Just how would you suggest structuring this second tier so that it could not be abused by allowing more experienced drivers to take advantage of it to gain an edge on their competition as well? Limit it to only those with less than a year of experience? Two years? Three? It took me 3 years of experience until I finally caught the fast guys in my class. I'm afraid this would add a whole new level of complication to the rules and administration of events that few would be willing to allow, but you are welcome to lobby for it and write a rules proposal that could be considered. I think people are trying to accommodate your desires for accelerating your learning curve within the existing system with the suggestions being offered here, but you will probably not find a lot of support for an immediate policy change that includes a double entry without being in "Exhibition" class or excluding yourself from the results completely. That's just my opinion, and everyone has one...

P.S. Dave, I'll be at FairPlex in a few weeks - see you there.

Doing DEs is the real solution for the seat time necessary to develop your performance driving skills and begin to close the gap to the more experienced drivers' lap times, as others have suggested, along with patience, more instruction, optimizing your car, and possibly getting into some data collection to see where you can improve on any given course.

TT

[ttweed]

If any person drives in 2 groups in one day, they should be excluded from any results listing. It is not fair for the regular classes or the X class.

For example, this numerical overall placement listing of all drivers
http://results.pcasdr.org/event_overall ... 1:11.77-14

This is actually just a technical problem with the way we have chosen to collect and display event results. Entering "Exhibition" class means that you are not competing "for time," either in TTOD, overall result listings, the BRI, or even with the other X class entries, and the inclusion of X results in our listings has been done historically because of the complication involved in writing the software correctly to exclude them. They have actually been excluded from the BRI competition by simply assigning them an impossible index of 3.0, which guarantees that no X class car will ever appear at the top of that listing, but IMHO, they should not be included in the Top Ten or overall raw time results listing either. As a courtesy, I think listing the results of the X class alone so that entrants can compare their times to other classes is fine, but it should be understood that Exhibition is a "non-competition" class by definition.

Also, they should not be able to get out of corner working 2 shifts. Lots of people have done work for the AX - like our hours in pre-reg, and we still have to work corners, so does logistics, equipment, safety, etc. Oh, yeah, plus some of us are instructing during the day too. What if a student wants to drive 2 run groups... Oh geez!

I agree with this completely. There are some possible "bugs" to allowing double entries that would have to be addressed, but I think it could be done without too much disruption.

We are a not for profit group remember?

This is true, but we are a non-profit group struggling with the economic viability of our events in these tough times, no? This idea merits some consideration under the circumstances, I think. My primary question would be "How many people would actually be willing to take advantage of a double entry if we were to offer it?" I'm not even sure Bill would if it meant he would not be able to compete in his class still, from what he has written here so far. If it also included working two corner sessions, not being a student, etc., would anyone really want to do it? There is no point in providing for an option that has no demand.

TT

[Don Middleton]

Running in the X Class would be a solution I agree. There would still be the possible issue of when the person would corner work, I am not sure how the reg team sets all that up, if it wouldbe an easy thing to put the person in a non-conflicting pattern or if it would really put strain on things?

Mark, I don't see a logistics issue to what Bill is proposing. It would be no different that the instructor-student pairings, but in this case Bill would fill both the instructor run group and the student run group (for example).

There might be a problem with corner worker staffing. If too many people (and it wouldn't take many) opted for double fee - double runs, we would be shorted on corner workers UNLESS the double fee-runners also did double corner working. And, double corner working might be enough for anyone to drop the idea.

[Cajundaddy]

An AX is what it is... a great way to spend the day with a bunch of your friends learning about car control with a little spirited competition to keep things interesting. It usually amounts to around 12 single laps and it is local (not at a distant race track) and doesn't cost very much. For many this is all the performance driving they will ever need or want. For those that hunger for more seat time/speed/adrenalin like me there are DEs, Time Trials, and Club Racing. There is wisdom in accepting and appreciating an AX for what it is and not trying to shape it into all things for all people. We will never please everyone but there are great performance driving opportunities for every level of interest within the PCA.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Hi Dave. I think this request must just pertain to AX because, and Bill can confirm this, the results database lists him as already having driven Chuckwalla and SOW. I guess it must be possible to run in 2 run groups there as well?

complication involved in writing the software correctly to exclude them.

We are a not for profit group remember?

This is true, but we are a non-profit group struggling with the economic viability of our events in these tough times, no? This idea merits some consideration under the circumstances, I think.
TT

Tom, I agree, not sure if anyone would want to do this if their results don't count. But it must be highlighted, and I'm not trying to take your quotes out of context, but changes to our existing system will require more work from our volunteers such as perhaps in this case re-writing software to include an exhibition class as you mentioned, problem solving run group assignments for pre-reg to cater to this request, corner working assignments? I'm not saying we can't do it, but I prefer to stream-line operations - NOT complicate them. Our Volunteers have enough to do already.

Also, at the board meeting last week, it was reported that our finances are stronger. We can keep this idea on the back burner if we get hard up for money again, but the money saving/earning policies and hard work we've already put in place has already helped make our finances better.

So to me it seems there are more inconveniences and work involved for our club than benefits to allowing a driver to run 2 run groups.

[Bill]

I would like to withdraw this suggestion. It obviously is not worth the anxiety and stress changes cause an organization like the PCASDR. As it turns out there are other options with other groups.

-Bill

[Kim Crosser]

The *simple* answer is sure - you can enter in two groups, BUT you would have to work in two Corner Working sessions. (Since you would drive twice as often, you should also help pick up cones twice as often.)

In practice, that would be a little bit of a pain, but workable. You would not be able to remain in the "assigned" groups all day (since at some point one of your groups would be driving while the other was corner working), but you could run AND corner work in alternate groups to get around that.

You would NOT be able to have an instructor OR student, as that would completely mess up any ability to schedule runs and corner working. This would only work for a single driver - no two driver cars allowed. You would also likely have to do some run sessions back-to-back, so no complaints about overheated tires...

If you don't mind corner working for 3+ hours, I think we can figure out how to let you get up to six run sessions.

[martinreinhardt]

It's the same rule for AX, DE and Time Trial at PCA Zone 8 / PCASDR.

Personally I think for AutoX/DE/TT it's just is not working nor worth the headache or effort. Also most timing systems I worked with use the car or transponder number as reference, so a driver would need two race numbers. Timing nightmare even if we have to exclude a car from his second timed runs.

The only place I have seen allowing two entries per driver is in club racing and obviously only when running two different type of cars in different run groups. Because it's not possible to be on grid in two cars at the same time. Per example: Guys I race with on my other racing weekends (with a for profit racing organization) enter a FIA Sports Racer in group A and a Formula Atlantic in group B. Yes, they get more track time, but you better be in good physical, mental and financial shape to take the advantage or it may become a disadvantage

[Greg Phillips]

I would like to withdraw this suggestion. It obviously is not worth the anxiety and stress changes cause an organization like the PCASDR. As it turns out there are other options with other groups.

-Bill

I think you gave up too soon
Remember the Forum is just a small (but vocal) part of the club.

I agree that with the caveat that you could drive double sessions as long as you also worked two corner work sessions and could only run in the X class as it would be unfair to other competitors in a class.

You should also only get one set of timed runs.
We see this at the Club race weekends as some of the club racers pay more and use the TT practice sessions for more practice time.

Greg

[Don Middleton]

I would like to withdraw this suggestion. It obviously is not worth the anxiety and stress changes cause an organization like the PCASDR. As it turns out there are other options with other groups.

-Bill

I think you gave up too soon
Remember the Forum is just a small (but vocal) part of the club.

I agree that with the caveat that you could drive double sessions as long as you also worked two corner work sessions and could only run in the X class as it would be unfair to other competitors in a class.

You should also only get one set of timed runs.
We see this at the Club race weekends as some of the club racers pay more and use the TT practice sessions for more practice time.Greg

Bill, I have to agree with Greg. Floating an idea on the Forum only measures your resistance to change. Your path to effecting that change has been charted. PM Greg or me for help with the next step.

[martinreinhardt]

If we allow double entry then they should run in X class and corner-work twice.

As Tom noted to be fair is to eliminate all X car times from the top 10 and the overall results. But somehow I think the X / exhibition drivers won't like that too much.

From a technology stand point the report could certainly be changed to ignore X cars (If class='X' ...)

Do we really want to do this when we're trying to attract X-cars to make our events break even?

[SDGT3]

This might add 2 pages to this thread, but "What If" Bill hired someone to do his 2 corner working shifts thus keeping him fresh for his double duty on track?

I can see it now.... "X Class Corner Workers"

[Robert]

Hi Dave. I think this request must just pertain to AX because, and Bill can confirm this, the results database lists him as already having driven Chuckwalla and SOW. I guess it must be possible to run in 2 run groups there as well?

It is not possible to run in 2 groups at an SDR DE or TT, though we get requests to do this from time to time. This is because the Rules (as was previously pointed out) do not allow it and we follow the Rules. If the Rules change, then we will change our procedures along with them.

I also agree with the previous posters who say that if you really want more track time, go to an SDR DE or TT. In just one weekend you will get as much track time as an entire year of AX, with an entry fee that is less than a year of AX entry fees. That said, the DE/TT team encourages everyone to continue AX'ing as much as possible. It's a great way to improve one's car control skills.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Yes, that's the real seat time. Martin and I may be attending a TT or DE here or there - maybe switch over to only that - gotta get the oil separator issue solved.

We'll see if the "path" is to bend the rules, or just change them for next year. BTW, I'll work anyone's corner working session for $40, if it includes beer, chips and dip.