X CARS

[MR LIPP]

You will NEVER make everyone happy! Except maybe with beer

Give me beer or give me death

Sorry. my ADD is kicking in again

[pecivil]

Sounds like the BMW club has been allowing Non-Member X Cars for a long time - so they have a system.

Jennifer, BMW club does not allow nonmembers to run. You do have to be a member. You just don't have to own a BMW to become one. This way they pay their fair share to participate. I agree with this. If you participate, you need to pay your fair share. I totally agree nonmembers should be asked to pay more to attend PCA events to cover the costs that they do not pay in member dues.

So the ideas so far are:

Nonmembers should pay more
Some probably need to be made instructors if the numbers stay large.
If attendance gets too big there should be a cutoff for X cars.
The autoX chairs and instructors need help.
EtoH after driving costs alot and may not be a good idea, but it is fun and lots of people enjoy it.
Using the affiliate memberships may or may not be a good idea for X car drivers.
The autoX Chairs need help.
X car drivers need to integrate and help to be part of the group.
parade laps may need to be abandoned if we are running late. Also the 5th practice lap. But if things stay on schedule it seems to be doable.
The autoX chairs need help.
PCA is WAY better than SCCA. ( just thought I'd throw that in hehe)

What did I miss?

[jenniferreinhardt]

Sounds like the BMW club has been allowing Non-Member X Cars for a long time - so they have a system.

Jennifer, BMW club does not allow nonmembers to run. You do have to be a member. You just don't have to own an BMW to become one.

So the ideas so far are:

Nonmembers should pay more
Some probably need to be made instructors if the numbers stay large.
If attendance gets too big there should be a cutoff for X cars.
The autoX chairs and instructors need help.
EtoH after driving costs alot and may not be a good idea, but it is fun and lots of people enjoy it.
Using the affiliate memberships may or not be a good idea for X car drivers.
The autoX Chairs need help.
X car drivers need to integrate and help to be part of the group.
parade laps may need to be abandoned if we are running late. Also the 5th practice lap. But if things stay on schedule it seems to be doable.
The autoX chairs need help.
PCA is WAY better than SCCA. ( just thought I'd throw that in hehe)

What did I miss?

Thanks for the clarification Monte. Don't think you missed anything - good summary with humor Now if I could just beat that Subaru next time I'll be happy. Or, I'm gonna have to get one! It'll have to be in white though. Martin always wanted a Lotus too. Just trying to lighten this thread up, we can always re-visit what we put in place as things progress.

[Mmagus]

Sounds like the BMW club has been allowing Non-Member X Cars for a long time - so they have a system.

The autoX chairs and instructors need help.

The autoX Chairs need help.

The autoX chairs need help.


What did I miss?

Monty...thanks for helping!

I do agree with Martin that non-members should not hold chair positions, but you, as a Xcar driving member would be a WELCOME fourth to the AX Team! You up for it?

[pecivil]

Mark, I can help 4 sure. I don't know what I am doing usually, but I am willing.

If Martin gets a lotus, I will never win X class again.

[mrondeau]

Here's my take on X cars/non members.

X Cars can and should be able to drive at our events. Non-members should pay $10 to $15 more.

If/when our events start to get overcrowded, limit non member attendance.

Non members should be able to instruct based on their skill level and experience.

All chair positions should be voting members in good standing. (anybody can help out )

Enforce tech rules and penalties. Any favors granted to late arrivals are just that, favors. It you can't make it on time, you may not get to drive. Make sure the tech rules and regulations are on Motorsport Reg in BOLD letters with a link to the driving events rules. There are plenty of people who will help a newbie with the rules, but he newbie (or any driver) should at least take the time to read them and attempt to be prepared. If you can figure out how to register, you can read the rules regarding tech, db limits, etc..

Affiliate members are each individual members decision. You're allowed one. Use it wisely.

Non members are helping keep our events afloat and seem to be playing nicely. I think we should let them drive with us until it gets to the point that we are overcrowded at our driving events or they start to outnumber us.

[Bill]

I think Jerry B is right when he noted that most of the responses are from long-time members. As someone who has only been AXing for a little over a year maybe I don't have a good perspective or should not even be commenting. I would, though, like to make a few observations. The first is in regard to eliminating parade laps and limiting the practice laps as some have suggested to 4 or 3. All the advice I have received from the more experienced drivers has stressed "seat time....seat time.....seat time....." as the way to improve. Obviously if you are running at or near the top time of the day, as many of the respondents to this forum topic are, this isn't important. If you're close to last (someone has to be ), it is! I think it would be unfortunate for those of us trying to be competitive to start limiting track time. Personally, I would rather pay more and have more track time.

A second point has to do with the X-car drivers. Clearly many of them are safe, responsible drivers as has been pointed out repeatedly. Unfortunately, this is not always the case (yes, Jackie, I know that could also happen with PCA drivers). Late last year and earlier this year there were X-car drivers (a BMW in paricular ) that thought this was a drifting contest. He went through the turn I was corner working, wiping out a dozen or so cones every time he went through - which most of the time was sideways. Another one spun his car three successive times going through the finish, coming close each time to the timing equipment. At the same AX a Corvette constantly sped through the pit area in spite of people yelling at him to slow down. In yet another instance, an X-car driver, who had not AXed before, did not want an instructor and wanted to drive alone. In my short time AXing I have not seen this behavior from P-car drivers - maybe over the years I will. I think the peer pressure from other P-drivers, the idea that you're part of a larger organization, the fact that many have gone through Performance Driving School, etc., may contribute to better behavior. With the X-car drivers you have no control and have to take what you get. I saw none of the above behavior at the last AX but we have no guarantee it won't happen again in the future. A few bad eggs and their friends, and a serious accident, could spoil it for everyone. Since all the people that count seem to be in favor of having them join us, maybe it would be appropriate to have an extended driver's meeting for them, specifically emphasizing what the PCASDR philosophy of autocrossing is as opposed to drifting or drag racing or seeing how many times you can spin your car.

Bill Ripka
Original Owner of a 1967 Porsche 912
'78 Porsche 911SC

[mrondeau]

I think Jerry B is right when he noted that most of the responses are from long-time members. As someone who has only been AXing for a little over a year maybe I don't have a good perspective or should not even be commenting. I would, though, like to make a few observations. The first is in regard to eliminating parade laps and limiting the practice laps as some have suggested to 4 or 3. All the advice I have received from the more experienced drivers has stressed "seat time....seat time.....seat time....." as the way to improve. Obviously if you are running at or near the top time of the day, as many of the respondents to this forum topic are, this isn't important. If you're close to last (someone has to be ), it is! I think it would be unfortunate for those of us trying to be competitive to start limiting track time. Personally, I would rather pay more and have more track time.

Bill, Quality laps are much more important than quantity at an AX. Parade laps do very little in improving your driving. You would be better off practicing the line on freeway on and off ramps than driving a parade lap at a typical AX. It's much more important to stay focused during your laps and increase your speed incrementally. 1st lap at 5/10's, 2nd lap at 7/10's, 3rd lap at 8/10's, ect. You will learn more and come up gradually. Do the same in the 2nd sessions. 1st lap 8/10's, 2nd lap really start to push some corners and dial in your line. 8 practice laps in the firs two sessions is enough to do that. Don't forget to spend your down time focusing on the track and how you want to drive it. Exchange information with other drivers. By the end of the day, I usually have 2 or 3 spots on the track that I know that I can still push harder in during timed runs. If everything is running smoothly, we should be able to do a 4 - 4(or 5) - 4 lap schedule and still be done by 5pm as required by our contract with the stadium.

A second point has to do with the X-car drivers. Clearly many of them are safe, responsible drivers as has been pointed out repeatedly. Unfortunately, this is not always the case (yes, Jackie, I know that could also happen with PCA drivers). Late last year and earlier this year there were X-car drivers (a BMW in paricular ) that thought this was a drifting contest. He went through the turn I was corner working, wiping out a dozen or so cones every time he went through - which most of the time was sideways. Another one spun his car three successive times going through the finish, coming close each time to the timing equipment. At the same AX a Corvette constantly sped through the pit area in spite of people yelling at him to slow down. In yet another instance, an X-car driver, who had not AXed before, did not want an instructor and wanted to drive alone. In my short time AXing I have not seen this behavior from P-car drivers - maybe over the years I will. I think the peer pressure from other P-drivers, the idea that you're part of a larger organization, the fact that many have gone through Performance Driving School, etc., may contribute to better behavior. With the X-car drivers you have no control and have to take what you get. I saw none of the above behavior at the last AX but we have no guarantee it won't happen again in the future. A few bad eggs and their friends, and a serious accident, could spoil it for everyone. Since all the people that count seem to be in favor of having them join us, maybe it would be appropriate to have an extended driver's meeting for them, specifically emphasizing what the PCASDR philosophy of autocrossing is as opposed to drifting or drag racing or seeing how many times you can spin your car.

As you point out, all of these things can, and often do, happen with PCA drivers. Drivers without respect for safety and the rules in place to protect them and others, must be dealt with. In my time driving with the club, I have seen numerous violations by P- car drivers. Some of our best drivers have a very hard time leaving the cones where they belong. I've seen 911's take out the timing on more than one occasion.

All drivers are required to have an instructor or show their competency to a CDI or designated instructor before they can drive solo. I have had many drivers insist that they didn't need an instructor and some of them didn't and others did. That's what the process is there for.

We do have control over non-members. Those that don't follow the rules can and should be sent away and not allowed to participate again. I've sent people home before and have no problem doing it again.

Tech inspection rules and Zone 8 rules are linked on motorsportreg.com. If anyone doesn't know the rules, it's their own fault. They were able to figure out how to register, they should be able to figure out how to click on the link and read the rules and requirements.

We are only as good as the participants as a whole. We can try to exclude those who we feel "don't fit in" or we can try to educate them, have fun with them and enjoy our events. Maybe some of them will want to buy P-cars and really have fun. I'd prefer to keep enjoying our events for as long as we have a venue to enjoy.

[martinreinhardt]

If Martin gets a lotus, I will never win X class again.

Hehe could be fun to figure out, I love competition

It's true I was looking at a white Lotus Exige before getting the Cayman. I love the Collin Chapman way of building race cars (true giant killers). Porsches are probably the best cars made, but the newer models became big, heavy and loaded with crap such as AC, electric seats, radios, subwoofers etc.

[martinreinhardt]

A bit off subject, but fun to watch X car at a small AutoX (Lotus Super 7)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4P40_b93HE

[pecivil]

Hey Martin! you are welcome to drive my elise at the autoX anytime. That was quite an interesting video. Almost a cross between Gymkhana and autocross. Lotus Sevens are famous for being nimble, guess that proves that, eh? That guy was a pretty good driver too

yes it sure would be nice if Lotus could even somewhat approach Porsche build quality. And pigs will fly too! haha

But the cars are getting heavy, BMW's even worse. The current M3 weighs 3800lbs

Porsche is taking the opposite tack with the Cayman R and Boxster Spyder and this is a good thing. I hope other sports car manuf's follow Porsche's lead in this. Lighter is better.

[Mike]

If the Porsche members should begin to welcome X cars start at the front gate.
I went to spectate (in a Vette) at the BMW and SCCA events recently.
Both times the waiver sign in volunteer gate guard was extremely nice.
I was offered a loaner helmet and free rides with instructors as I entered the gate.
While this club is at odds with X cars I found no bitterness at the BMW/SCCA AX events.

[Kim Crosser]

While this club is at odds with X cars I found no bitterness at the BMW/SCCA AX events.

I don't think "this club" is at odds with X cars. There are a lot of us who have no problem with X cars running with us. I suspect if you polled BMWCCA you might even find a few of their members who aren't keen on having non-Bimmers attending. And SCCA has always been a multi-manufacturer club, so I would hope they don't have an issue with Porsches running.

Allowing non-PCA members to drive with us is a new thing. Until recently, only PCA members (regardless of actual vehicle) were allowed to play at the driving events. When we had 100+ attendees at every event, there wasn't any real impetus to open attendance to others.

Would I prefer more Porsches attending and fewer X-cars? Yes - but only because I would like to see more cars in each of our classes - I miss the days 5-10 years ago when we regularly had classes with 6-10 entrants.
I certainly prefer having enough people to help corner work - I can just picture trying to hold a West lot AX with 6 corner workers.
Like any other change, it just takes some getting used to it.

[Jad]

Back in the late 90's, when ONLY Porsche's were allowed at the events, one of the board members made a suggestion at a board meeting to, "significantly raise the entry price to keep the riff-raff out". He didn't want the 944's to be allowed to drive in the club. This is the sort of elitism that I, and many others, expected from "the PORSCHE CLUB". Many of those unwanted riff-raff people are still with the club and have been VERY valuable members over the year.

So my position is:

1) Lets not be the elitist club that requires a $100k car to join, often they are the worst drivers/rule breakers
2) Lets not use the 'slippery slope' arguement to keep anything good from happening. If it works now, try it, then fix it WHEN it is a problem, not kill it IF it could become a problem.
3) Follow the rules!!! If ANYONE speeds in the pits, SEND THEM HOME. If ANYONE continually knocks lots of cones down, send them home (Jackie excluded ), Late for tech, they don't drive or pay more - always - NO EXCEPTIONS, otherwise everyone wants to be the exception and has a sob story. It is $10 bucks, if you are late, pay it or go home.
4) Remember, it is just for FUN.

[gulf911]

Yes, everyone knows 100k cars driving around cones in a parking lot is elitist...