Double Time AX

[Kim Crosser]

I don't know about chips and dip, but I think I can find some beer at the end of the AX.

[Bill]

Robert wrote:
It is not possible to run in 2 groups at an SDR DE or TT, though we get requests to do this from time to time. This is because the Rules (as was previously pointed out) do not allow it and we follow the Rules.

I'm sorry but I can't let this go unchallenged. As explicitly pointed out in detail previously the rule quoted says nothing about the same car driven by the same driver in more than one session. It's important to read the rules as well as follow them. As Tom Tweed wrote:

".... you are perhaps not violating the letter of the rules, but you would be going contrary to the spirit and intent of fair and level competition contained in them.

To better understand "..contrary to the spirit and intent " one should probably reread George Orwell's Animal Farm, where the revised intent of their particular rules were posted daily on the barn wall .

As I said before I want to recant, ask for forgiveness, and withdraw the suggestion of double runs. Instead I have decided to ask my identical twin brother, Charles, who incidentally has arthritis and can't corner work, to drive my car, of course, with a different number. That will be within all the current rules and interpretation of the rules and everyone, including Jennifer, should be happy. By the way, Marie, do you happen to have a twin sister??

Bill

-Bill

[JERRY B]

Isn't beer the next thing on the chopping block?

[martinreinhardt]

To me this ship has sailed. The rule's intention and reason why it exists in the first place is clear to me and most people. It may be changed if someone proposes a rule change to the rules committee for 2012 - and gets accepted that is.

Where is the Board's leadership on this issue?

[tb911]

It is not possible to run in 2 groups at an SDR DE or TT, though we get requests to do this from time to time. This is because the Rules (as was previously pointed out) do not allow it and we follow the Rules. If the Rules change, then we will change our procedures along with them.

While it is obvious the rules are not clear enough, I can tell you the intention is that an individual gets one registration, and if they bring more than one car, they have to run them in their allotted run groups, with no additional laps. (A DE might be an area for an exception since there is no timing, no competition.) Any proposal to allow multiple registrations will not get accepted in the Zone 8 rules without going through the full and complete review and approval process. If the San Diego Region chooses to have a local exception to the Zone 8 rules (which they can do, of course), I would caution the board/chairs to think this through as it is obviously controversial and has many details that need to be worked out.

[gulf911]

Not that it matters , but why on earth would you have to corner work twice?? You now corner work ( about 2 hours) through 3 run groups , not 1. So how are you short if you corner work 1 stint as usual and run your car in 2 groups under the same corner working stint? Is this some form of punishment?

[Mmagus]

Tom clarified the intent of the rules.

With that said, IF (and thats a BIG if) we were to circumvent them and allow 2x registeration, they would not work two corner working sessions, they would get timed laps but all of them would be listed as DNF so that no advantage from the extra seat time would result in beating the competition. AND it would only be available to people with "Driver" or "Instructor" status.


Mark
AX Whippingboy

[jenniferreinhardt]

I like the DNF part - or no results or times displayed for all 2 registrations people. I think that alone would discourage serious racers or those who want to place in a class for that year

[Jackie C]

Even more advantage to the x-car class, eh? So, I'm thinking that second session should cost more ...and rename it, semi-DEAX .

[lrayner]

If a legal approach is applied to the interpretation of the rules, they are not parsed and interpreted in the way that has been suggested, but are taken as a whole. The plain meaning and intent of the rules is as Tom B has stated.

As the former corner working chair I can tell you that each run group works corners every AX. If 5 people that run in a particular run group are not required to work corners because they are also running and corner working in another run group, then it is likely there will be a shortage. As a result even more instructors will have to work double duty in their run groups session in addition to working their students corner working session- or the AX chairs will be asked to work corners- or maybe timing will... It gets harder to excuse the people who really ought to be excused if you contemplate rewarding someone who runs in two run groups by excusing them from one of the corner working sessions.

I also don't like the idea of competing against someone who obviously has such a huge advantage by getting twice as many runs- even if the timed runs are just for bragging rights.I have noticed and benefited from the advantage of getting a re-run during timed runs. Having double practice runs would render any timed run comparison to regular entries meaningless.

If a rules change is proposed I will certainly listen with an open mind, but I definintely have reservations about this one. (But that is just one preliminary opinion)

[Mmagus]

Leigh,

I am not sold on the concept but I would like to chime in on a couple of things you mentioned.

The possibility of somehow offering more seat time, while not harming the current competitvness and increasing income is worthwhile to at least consider. However, I would in no way support the concept unless the person were to recieve a DNF on all timed runs. The origional thought was from a gent wondering about simply "getting more seat time" and a DNF would remove them from effecting the outcome of timed laps and provide just that...seat time.

I dont know how the corner working groups are set up, but from what you mention it would seem that there could be strain placed on the system. That would also be something I would not support. Hopefully discussing it as we have will produce new positive ideas, if not it has at least made for a lively debate!

Mark
AX Whipingboy

[Steve Grosekemper]

It seems pretty clear to me what the intent of the rule is.
I would caution people who like to stir the pot and waste organizers time in a volunteer organization such as this.
Become as instructor. They get twice the track time, just not from the left seat.

If you want to increase your seat time in one day just go to a single DE and get a years’ worth of AX in a single day.

[Bill]

I would like to point out that I withdrew this suggestion 5 days and 21 posts ago!! Please reread the following:

Posted July 9th:
I would like to withdraw this suggestion. It obviously is not worth the anxiety and stress changes cause an organization like the PCASDR. As it turns out there are other options with other groups.
-Bill

As far as cautioning people who waste the organizers time, I am a little surprised that the several people in the last 21 posts since then, including the last one, while able to determine the intent and real meaning of the rules seem unable to understand the simple sentence above. Perhaps English is not their first language as indicated by the last post,

Become as instructor.

However, even I can see the intent of that.

[JERRY B]

Most people are missing the point, He doesn't care about the points, He only wants extra seat time. All timed laps would be DNF
I would be willing to give this a try on a very limited basis.
Besides without the parade laps I got to have something, To cause controversy And stir the pot
Board comments?

[Steve Grosekemper]

My apologies Bill...
I missed that in my hi speed scanning of the 3 page thread...
I failed my Evelyn Wood speed reading course… (Speed I got, comprehension not so much)
Man have I just dated myself or what?

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.