Dyno Day pics

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby pdy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:21 pm

Tom, Tom, Tom....
I only have two regular track cars, although one has had three different pant jobs - maybe that's your confusion :P
You see the cars listed below? ↓ That's it!


John:

The run from a couple years back was my OTHER 911, class V2/R4, or can run in GT4. As you can see, with 201.5 WHP it isn't very
competitive in either class, though I did earn a couple of FTD at PCASDR autocross events. :beerchug:

At Willow in February, I do plan to dyno "Snickers", the car just measured last weekend, so we'll have a comparison.

Good seeing you and Jan Saturday!
Last edited by pdy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby pdy on Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:25 pm

gocart wrote:Just curious if anyone else had an unexpected "bump" in their torque curve like I did.

See my previous post.


Yes, indeed - and interestingly enough mine was at 3952 or 4026 on the first two runs (180 ft-lb and 179 ft-lb).
The third run has a smooth ramp through that range, and peaked with a more expected 172 ft-lb at 4300 rpm.

Definitely suspect!
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby martinreinhardt on Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:19 pm

Just curious are these numbers in DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm) or STD (Standard) / SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)? The numbers look a bit high hinting that it was measured in STD / SAE.
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby ttweed on Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:28 am

martinreinhardt wrote:Just curious are these numbers in DIN (Deutsche Industrie Norm) or STD (Standard) / SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)? The numbers look a bit high hinting that it was measured in STD / SAE.

Yes, Martin, the chassis dyno is measuring SAE net HP (corrected for air temp and pressure) at the wheels. There is about a 1.39% correction to be applied to convert to Pferdestärke (DIN), but these values are so close to equal that for all but the most technical purposes DIN and SAE net are interchangeable. This 1.39% is a small amount compared to the correction for drivetrain power loss that must be applied to convert RWHP to HP at the flywheel, which is how Porsche measures and reports their engine power. I have seen estimates for drivetrain loss anywhere from 12-20%, so it is likely that our margin of error is greater on this conversion than the SAE/DIN correction. This is all a "ballpark" exercise, at best.

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby Dan Chambers on Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:39 am

Fascinating thread, especially about the anomalies, and the questions about who's car is doing what now. While it's mostly curiosity, maybe a little "rooster-in-the-yard" braggin' rights, and interest in what each other's cars can produce, I can't help wondering how these tests affect how the cars are classed in the new system.

Us folks with older cars ... especially those with swapped engines or modified engines ... are completely reliant on the "relative" accuracy of the dyo's to class our cars. So reading through the discussions, and noting the vagaries of the results makes me take pause at where I would class my base-points according to the formula of Power-to-Weight as specified in the new Classification system. Am I pulling 273 RWHP, am I pulling 287 RWHP, am I pulling 269 RWHP? .... And how do I class my car if I get an anomalous blip that could re-curve my results in HP? Let's just say it's not exactly reassuring when I read something like:

ttweed wrote:This is all a "ballpark" exercise, at best.TT


I'm basing my competitive class on "ballpark exercises, at best" ... as are my classmates? :shock:

Makes me wonder a bit ... :roll:
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby ttweed on Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:59 am

Dan Chambers wrote:I'm basing my competitive class on "ballpark exercises, at best" ... as are my classmates? :shock:

Well, it ain't rocket science, that's for sure, Dan. If this were a moonshot aimed at landing on the "Sea of Tranquility," I don't think you would end up on Mars, but you might touch down somewhere else on the moon (possibly on the dark side), but still somewhere on the correct celestial body. :D

I'm not the one to play apologist or cheerleader for the new rules here--my history in this process is pretty clear. I advocated for rules stability and evolutionary change/refinement from the beginning, not the radical overhaul we got in the end. But it's a done deal now, and I'm dealing with what we have like anyone else, trying to figure out what the rules mean now and trying to optimize my car. It's going to be an interesting year, and the next few rule revision periods should be fruitful, as we discover the "holes" and unintended consequences of the new system. It's important to keep in mind that this is all supposed to be for fun. :wink:

My take on the new rules is that everyone has a place to play, but the compression of the classes is going to favor certain choices of cars and mods (as has always been true). Obviously, the SS classes are going to offer the best chance of "level competition," but this choice isn't available for the older cars. Even in SS, there will be "favored" models within a class, but the new rules encourage not modifying your car, just like the old ones. With an older (or modified) car that runs in the CC-classes, you have choices to make about setting up or optimizing your car that will probably offer 3 classes to run in, depending on tire and equipment selections.

In your particular case, I'm not sure that the vagaries of dyno measurement have to enter the picture at all. Is your engine swap completely stock? Were cams/induction/compression changed or was the engine management reprogrammed in the process? If nothing was altered, and you simply transplanted a stock 3.6L into your SC, then my opinion is that you don't need to (and probably shouldn't) bother with measuring the HP. You will almost undoubtedly be better off using the figure for HP published by the factory for your engine type, as it seems that Porsche is very conservative with their power figures and most models produce more power on the dyno than advertised.

If your engine has been modified from stock, you may still find that measuring HP on the dyno gives you a better result in the HP/Weight equation than taking the individual point penalties for the various engine mods. There is no "free" chipping anymore, though, so if your only mod was reprogramming the ECU, I would consider going back to stock and not having to dyno the car. This is a cheap and easy "de-contenting" that may pay off ultimately in points and $$$.

If you are forced to dyno, it's not the end of the world. Yes, there are variations in machines and techniques that do not give you an absolute value that is guaranteed to be accurate. As Mike said earlier in this thread, dynos are most useful as a tuning tool, optimizing output of an engine, not for comparing it to other cars measured on other machines at a different time. As John Gordon said, for classification purposes, it is best to have all the cars measured on the same machine on the same day to level the possible variance in the figures. Our rules don't require that, though, and we don't measure ALL the cars in the class, so there are going to be variances. The question is how significant these will be. As we saw from Gordon's report, even with a highly modified engine, he came out better on total points by measuring than by taking individual mod points. I would point out that the "blips" that some people reported on some runs were for peak torque numbers, not for max. HP, which is what applies for the formula, and they were small (3 ft. lbs. in my case, out of 190).

Am I pulling 273 RWHP, am I pulling 287 RWHP, am I pulling 269 RWHP?
Well, if you dyno and don't like the number you get, you can always go to another dyno and try again. You might get luckier. :D

I think you will find that even given the possible variances, a 5% (say, 10 HP in 200) difference in measurement on one machine vs. another does not have a huge impact in our classification scheme. Plugging 194 HP instead of 204 into the formula for HP/WT makes a 17-point difference. If that point difference bumps you into a higher class, where you don't want to be (remember you have 50 points between classes until you get to CC-14, where you have 75), you can make some other change like adding some ballast (if you are less than stock weight) or changing your tire choice to get back down into the class you want to run in. It's all a compromise, and indeed a "ballpark" situation. Some of the cars you might be running against may have 49 points less than you do, if their cars are not optimized.

HTH,
TT
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Dyno & Classification

Postby Greg Phillips on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:03 am

Dan Chambers wrote:Fascinating thread, especially about the anomalies, and the questions about who's car is doing what now. While it's mostly curiosity, maybe a little "rooster-in-the-yard" braggin' rights, and interest in what each other's cars can produce, I can't help wondering how these tests affect how the cars are classed in the new system.

Us folks with older cars ... especially those with swapped engines or modified engines ... are completely reliant on the "relative" accuracy of the dyo's to class our cars. So reading through the discussions, and noting the vagaries of the results makes me take pause at where I would class my base-points according to the formula of Power-to-Weight as specified in the new Classification system. Am I pulling 273 RWHP, am I pulling 287 RWHP, am I pulling 269 RWHP? .... And how do I class my car if I get an anomalous blip that could re-curve my results in HP? Let's just say it's not exactly reassuring when I read something like:

ttweed wrote:This is all a "ballpark" exercise, at best.TT


I'm basing my competitive class on "ballpark exercises, at best" ... as are my classmates? :shock:

Makes me wonder a bit ... :roll:

And you think the alternative is so much more precise :?:

Remember that except for cars that have been chipped, the dyno option is just that, an option.
You can still take the traditional points for displacement, cams, intake (so precise) rather than using a dyno number.
Or for a stock swap you can use the factory number, but you don't think there would be any variation from engine to engine from the factory do you :roflmao:
Plus, how precise do you think the scales are, how much variation from truck scale to shop scales is there?
Also the rules provide for 3 runs to be averaged to avoid anomalous results skewing the data.
Of course the biggest variable of all is tire grip, and we don't have a good system of measuring that except for using the manufacturer's treadwear rating :surr:
The whole exercise for classing cars is to get them into the same ballpark, perfection is unattainable, even if you are trying to run a Spec series with tight rules and scrutiny.
We are trying to get cars with similar performance potential into the same classes.

Greg
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby gocart on Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:31 pm

Update: I just weighed my car and the bottom line is I saved 29 points using the HP/wt method. I can now play in CC8 instead of CC9.

Were cams/induction/compression changed or was the engine management reprogrammed in the process? If nothing was altered, and you simply transplanted a stock 3.6L into your SC,

Wouldn't you also have to have the stock exhaust, including the cat as well?
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby ttweed on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:04 pm

gocart wrote:Wouldn't you also have to have the stock exhaust, including the cat as well?

No. We allow anyone to modify their exhaust if you take the individual point penalties for cat removal and non-stock exhaust (5 points each), but if you dyno the car in that modified configuration, you don't have to take the points for the exhaust mod, because they are reflected in any HP gain you register on the dyno from them.

There is no single point penalty for a reprogramming mod, though, as they can be mild to wild, depending on what fuel you use and whether you have forced induction, so you must dyno in that case.

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby gulf911 on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:14 pm

I wanted to wait until the dust settled on the 'new' classes before commenting, but how do I say it nicely?... they currently suck... :banghead:

If you are allowing HP/weight as a gauge , why isnt there a way to add weight to bring down your points?? If there is please let me know.

You guys talk like , well if you are in too high a class just change your options.. :roll: Yeah, just pull out those brakes , trans, suspension.. :lol:

I am teetering on going into running a TT with a 997 GT3.... Tom, this doesnt just border on absurdity , its way past it. I'll run against any stockish 997 GT3 , at an AX, and I might have a fighting chance but on a track?? Are you kidding?. :surr:
I would suggest that lets fix this AX/TT point issue sooner rather than later.
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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby Greg Phillips on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:50 pm

gulf911 wrote:I wanted to wait until the dust settled on the 'new' classes before commenting, but how do I say it nicely?... they currently suck... :banghead:

If you are allowing HP/weight as a gauge , why isnt there a way to add weight to bring down your points?? If there is please let me know.

You guys talk like , well if you are in too high a class just change your options.. :roll: Yeah, just pull out those brakes , trans, suspension.. :lol:

I am teetering on going into running a TT with a 997 GT3.... Tom, this doesnt just border on absurdity , its way past it. I'll run against any stockish 997 GT3 , at an AX, and I might have a fighting chance but on a track?? Are you kidding?. :surr:
I would suggest that lets fix this AX/TT point issue sooner rather than later.

If you are at stock weight, you can't add weight to move down a class.
But if you have lightened your car and taking weight points, you can add weight back up to the stock weight.
You can use narrower or less sticky tires, changing from 275/245 to 245/225 will be an entire class (50 points)
It can be done, check out the results of Buttonwillow TT with Zone 7 last year where Steve was TTOD
The only GT3's in the top ten for the last 3 events were Mike Avitt's (not stock 996) and Randy Gates (definitely not stock 996)
Shut up and drive :^) :burnout:

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby Mmagus on Wed Jan 18, 2012 3:54 pm

gulf911 wrote:If you are allowing HP/weight as a gauge , why isnt there a way to add weight to bring down your points?? If there is please let me know.


Though I may be incorrect, I believe you can if you do the actual HP/lbs method rather than taking the listed "base points". To go that route you have a three pull dyno session and average the findings for your HP. Then have the car weighed and follow the directions in the rules section "Appendix D Engine horsepower increase and/or vehicle weight decrease". Using that method, it seems to me that adding ballast would lower your points.

Of course, I might not be understanding things properly. :roflmao:

Greg...I agree that if you use the "provided base points" what you said would apply. But if you are using the HP to weight method, why can't you go over stock weight? Its all just weight and hp...right?

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby ttweed on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:23 pm

gulf911 wrote:If you are allowing HP/weight as a gauge , why isnt there a way to add weight to bring down your points?? If there is please let me know.
There is, Dan, you can add ballast--there is no prohibition against that, but you cannot go heavier than what is stock for your model. Are you already running at stock weight or do you have room to ballast up?

OK--I looked at your classification on the website and it looks like you're not taking points for any weight reduction, so you might not have room for ballast. I can see some other problems with your mod points, though--we need to talk. You should be entering your HP (published or dyno'd) and weight (if less than stock), not taking 126 pts. for displacement increase. That's wrong.

You might also model your classification using the update/backdate provision to turn your car into a 3.2 Carrera. You might be able to come out ahead that way. It's more base points, but no engine points if you have a stock 3.2, and no brake points if you have Carrera brakes. You would have a choice of ballasting up to 2700 lbs. then as well.

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby ttweed on Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:25 pm

Mmagus wrote:Greg...I agree that if you use the "provided base points" what you said would apply. But if you are using the HP to weight method, why can't you go over stock weight? Its all just weight and hp...right?

The rules state that you can not weigh more than stock for your model whether you calculate HP/WT or use the base points. Actually, you CAN weigh more, you just don't get any points credit for it--there are no "negative mod points" for being overweight.

You can, however, declare yourself to be another model through the update/backdate provision, which might have a different stock weight.

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Re: Dyno Day pics

Postby Mike on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:00 pm

gulf911 wrote:If you are allowing HP/weight as a gauge , why isnt there a way to add weight to bring down your points?? If there is please let me know.


just wanted to dogpile on. :burnout:
lets talk it over while you ride with me at CVR. 8)
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