Autocross 4/21/2013 Results

[rcsd_447]

Thank you for all the hard work everyone.

Although some may have liked the track, I heard many more people who were vocal about being frustrated about the track, and some were actually nauseous during the day. I hope our PDS Students come back to try again so they can apply what they learned from the School next time.

It’s all a learning experience for us to do better. We need to have a challenge and have it be fun, not frustrating. How did the actual track vary so much from the one posted? Were the Boy Scouts responsible?

I hope the students come back too!

I helped set up the track on Saturday and most of the other helpers were also new, myself included. Feedback is always appreciated, as are suggestions to make it more enjoyable for everyone.

Couple of observations:
- Only being able to set the very top of the track before the boy scouts left left little time for most of the track... It was close to sunset by the time we were doing the balcony.
- Having the Lightpost designations (D5 etc) on the track map helps a lot --- it's a little difficult comparing a birds-eye view to ground-level view, especially for determining the size of a corner without getting out surveying equipment.
- Modifications were made to avoid the worst patches of pavement
- E3 corner was removed by request of safety officer
- Not all the lightposts are marked on the track map.
- Balcony was different --- not sure what happened there, but it was getting dark.
- The one part the surprised me is that we didn't have the track as bendy as the map showed, but some of the corners are compressed together and made a recipe for lunch tossing.
- The track wasn't as wide as previous autocrosses --- we measured 7-8 yards but seems this is the incorrect width.

The last two points probably account for the nausea.

Finally, nerding it up and just being curious how the actual and map compared, I recorded the gps data for the track since engineers just have to build it, measure it, and refine it. (Unfortunately didn't get the refine it though). There is a least a slight wiggle for the slalom which suggests it's good to a few feet of accuracy. (Recorded with external 5Hz differential-GPS unit+Trackmaster App, and plotted with Google Earth).

I don't think it's fair to say the track was completely different. We did our best with the constraints we had, and people are willing to learn if there is experience to be passed on.

Annoying imageshack link of the google earth / track map comparison --- someone please repost it if you can. I don't have a good place to host images.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/54 ... sdrnet.png

[rcsd_447]

Also, not sure all the lightposts are correctly marked. I remember D5 and worked from there to label.

[jenniferreinhardt]

The complaining suggests some were out of their comfort zone, less able to rely on the brute force of their cars, and forced to concentrate on more precise driving.

I don't know about you, but I'm always out of my comfort zone at an AX. That's what keeps me coming back

But, there are AX layout standards and rules to uphold.
We’ve had many previous horsepower equalizer track layouts that were fantastic!!

[jenniferreinhardt]

I helped set up the track on Saturday and most of the other helpers were also new, myself included. Feedback is always appreciated, as are suggestions to make it more enjoyable for everyone.

I don't think it's fair to say the track was completely different. We did our best with the constraints we had, and people are willing to learn if there is experience to be passed on.

Hi Rodney and thank you for your efforts and precision in diagnosing the track! You have some great points and ideas to follow up on.

Yesterday, another Driver was mentioning an online Autocross track design course. I was just trying to find it quickly and came upon this link. This is SCCA and I'm not sure if this complies with PCASDR rules but it has some good information in it. I think Bill and Gary took one of the design courses.

http://www.houscca.com/solo/courses/Cou ... _4-1-2.pdf

[Carl Vanders]

Congrats to Adam G! He put it down! AND in the car I recently sold car him... Excellent driving to Keith too! He took cc07 buy surprise and 2 bri.
Words of advice on car set up for the Q. It likes a softer suspension set up. I have seen many a car go from doing poorly at the Q to doing very well at the grippy surface of el toro. The reverse is true too.
But please less cones, I had only had one clean run in practice and "one official" in timed but thats a different story.
We have had some excellent courses in the past few years, I also remember further back to 06-08 when I believe Jackie L designed several that were fast, smooth, ( they also incorporated some wide sections that made you make your own line -as on a track) very few cones were used. Wonder, if the track maps are still around?
Look forward to the next one.

[LUCKY DAVE]

The experienced drivers in our club can drive on any track, and this one was no different in that respect. My timed runs were clean, if not fast (insert excuses number 7 and 13 here) and in the end I got beat by (many !) better drivers, which is as it should be.
I just like faster tracks with more flowing layouts better, they're more fun, and this is supposed to be all about fun. After all, by Wednesday no one will remember or care who was King of the Parking Lot.
I must say, this slower more technical track was great for teaching. The fact that I had a wonderful student (that listened closely, learned quickly, did what I said, and best of all REMEMBERED to do it during timed runs...WOW!) only amplified that.
"Gas Gas Gas Aubrey!"

[Gary Burch]

Finally, nerding it up and just being curious how the actual and map compared, I recorded the gps data for the track since engineers just have to build it, measure it, and refine it. (Unfortunately didn't get the refine it though). There is a least a slight wiggle for the slalom which suggests it's good to a few feet of accuracy. (Recorded with external 5Hz differential-GPS unit+Trackmaster App, and plotted with Google Earth).

I don't think it's fair to say the track was completely different. We did our best with the constraints we had, and people are willing to learn if there is experience to be passed on.

Annoying imageshack link of the google earth / track map comparison --- someone please repost it if you can. I don't have a good place to host images.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/54 ... sdrnet.png

The set up procedure has certainly changed since my days setting up the ax track...

Carl, Dan and I would meet up on Wed. before the ax and do a drive thru at the stadium on proposed tracks. We would finalize the design, allow for the pavement, and adjust for feel, then do the track map. Engineering is fine, but nothing replaces the seat of the pants method for rhythm and flow in a track. Too many 180's, chicanes had no flow and no reward, too many squiggles, just too much stuff, and tooooo tight. A wide track allows different lines, which is a better teaching tool than the tight confines that limit any attempt at variation. And what's up with squaring off the corners with a cone or two right in the line?

Risk should equal reward not knocking cones all over the place.

[JERRY B]

We have many openings for track Setters, Its kinda funny that The people that always complain about the tracks never help set them up
It is really selfish of you With your high powered cars to complain about a track that favors low powered cars
Every year it's the same thing, We do 8 Fast Tracks & 1 Tight Track Then you want my Head & think I need a school on how to set Tracks WTF

[Don Middleton]

...Every year it's the same thing, We do 8 Fast Tracks & 1 Tight Track Then you want my Head & think I need a school on how to set Tracks

Jerry, a little track design controversy makes you the winner. When they all like it, you have to ask yourself what you missed.

[martinreinhardt]

Jerry you are missing the point and to your comment, you may have noticed most of us are already volunteering and some in double duties for multiple years.

The problem is not with horsepower equalizer tracks, but some of the flawed track designs. Reading your response, you clearly have not read the SCCA Solo2 course document above. It's worth reading for any autocrosser to understand the basics of autocross track design.

We have run some of the best AX events in the country and have had some fun tracks in the past, but this was not one of them. The best tracks I can remember were from Bill B., Gary B. & Jackie L. and there were some others.

[LUCKY DAVE]

We have many openings for track Setters, Its kinda funny that The people that always complain about the tracks never help set them up
It is really selfish of you With your high powered cars to conplain about a track that favors low powered cars
Every year it's the same thing, We do 8 Fast Tracks & 1 Tight Track Then you want my Head & think I need a school on how to set Tracks WTF

Jerry, don't be so sensitive, we don't want your head because of this track.

We wanted it anyway

But you DO have a point about low lifes like me complaining about a track I didn't help set up. Said the Little Red Hen.

[Gary Burch]

In track design, like many other things in life, less is more. Subtle is better than bold, clean is better than busy, risky is the best of all. Just because a track has lots of turns and no rhythm doesn't make it a low horsepower track, I have low horsepower and it didn't appeal to me.

Jerry you do a great job, and it's only one track. In a couple of months you will be the only one that remembers this, and everybody else will be complaining
about some other bump in their road and not a Bumpus.

So relax and don't put too much stock in all this.

[996Pilot]

Thank you for all the hard work everyone.
........
I hope our PDS Students come back to try again so they can apply what they learned from the School next time.

How did the actual track vary so much from the one posted? Were the Boy Scouts responsible?

I hope the students come back too!

I helped set up the track on Saturday and most of the other helpers were also new, myself included. Feedback is always appreciated, as are suggestions to make it more enjoyable for everyone.
......

I don't think it's fair to say the track was completely different. We did our best with the constraints we had, and people are willing to learn if there is experience to be passed on.

I too was one of the "New Guys"out there helping to set the track. I was/am a student - I had a ton of fun, got to practice what I was taught at PDS (my first time out) and saw many, many of the elements of PDS that had to be carefully applied in order to be fast on the course. Yep, it was busy and hard to drive - I have a whole new appreciation for lots of you truly excellent drivers that made that course work - however difficult and non-flowing as it was. I'm biased having Keith as an instructor but he gave me an incredible view of how to drive that course. His results at the end of the day showed it.

Looking at Rodney's GPS map vs. the proposed layout, I see the proposed layout having some even tighter corners and even more twists than the actual finished course. Arriving on Saturday afternoon with a total of two veterans and two rookies we were up against some 500 boy scouts and their families complete with about 400-500 cars parked on "the course"along with huge fenced off areas, displays, trucks, etc. They weren't due to finish their event until 4:00 wich was to be the START of them tearing down. We had to start the layout at the very TOP of the track (near the Qualcomm sign) and work backwards. Not an optimum way to begin a layout and we all knew it but tried to deal with the hand we were dealt.

I have read the SCCA guidelines for AX layout ----- NOW. That would have been nice to see in advance. So would a parking lot layout to scale and light posts marked, drains marked, pavement breakup (there are many) marked, and all of the other prep things the SCCA presentation says you should have in advance. Would have been nice to know how wide to make it in advance (we were told there was a string guide but could not find it). Would have been nice to be able to chalk it all out in advance (to make it flow better) but boyscout event would not allow it. Would have been nice to know how many cones to put out or have a guideline handy to refer to. Would have been nice to drive it completely through but too many bobtail trucks, workers and stray boyscouts there until dark.

The four of us got there at about 3:00 and we said our goodbyes after a slice of pizza and a beer at close to 9:00pm Saturday. I noticed that the four of us all showed up Sunday between 5:30 and 5:45AM and I think we were all concerned but hey, like I said, we did the best we could with the hand we were dealt. I don't think any of us felt it was the best we could do but it was what we could do.

Rodney and I (both being new to AX layout and both somewhat nerdy) both thought we could easily improve this process using a precise layout of the lot and ALL of the obstacles and features to have to work with. This precision is easily obtained via GPS and between us we have compared and have some pretty good tools at our disposal. Rodney did a darn good job of a pretty good GPS map by walking the course with his smartphone. I plan on taking a highly accurate GPS to the lot in the next week or two and creating a highly accurate, scale map template of the entire lot with all of its "features"to make it easier to do the paper layout and additionally make it AVAILABLE to those charged with the responsibility to do the layout. I like the SCCA AX guideline of using bezier curves with equal length handles for layout - this will assure a smooth flow to the track. Finally, a paper layout on the accurate template using a tool such as Garmin Basecamp (available for free) will allow a very accurate layout and subsequently loading it into a GPS will allow using the GPS track mode to chalk the course. Accuracy should be less than 7 feet overall this way. What you see is what you get!! Won't please everyone but sure would stop the "why didn't it look like the map"comments ---- or maybe not.

I know I'm new to this and can't offer much as far as comparison to "the good old days" everyone mentioned in previous posts but I'll reiterate --- I had fun, learned a lot and got to practice and build on what I learned in PDS. The track was great for that.

I thought about apologizing for being one of the layout people (after reading all of the comments) but I can not offer an apology for trying my best to 1.Get Involved , 2 Help where I could help, 3. Give it my best effort, 4. Offer suggestions for improving the overall process. Especially since after corner working all morning then helping at the start line after my runs being told by a driver to F%$k Off when I asked if she was having fun.

Cheers

Dan Michaels
2002 Carrera Cab daily driver
996 Spec #686

[jenniferreinhardt]

(after reading all of the comments) but I can not offer an apology for trying my best to 1.Get Involved , 2 Help where I could help, 3. Give it my best effort, 4. Offer suggestions for improving the overall process. Especially since after corner working all morning then helping at the start line after my runs being told by a driver to F%$k Off when I asked if she was having fun.

Dan, you are one heck of a guy! Thank you for your positive attitude and enthusiasm! We old timers can be a PITA sometimes. Racers are a competitive group and often spend a lot of money for this past time, but we all just need a reminder sometimes to not be so intense. We are like a family and don't always get along, but in the end have good intentions. We really are a nice group. Sorry, you got yelled at by a Student but I know you were laughing about it later. See you next time

[JB987]

To both Dan and Rodney, and all those involved in the track setting, I would say this.
Thanks for your hard work!

That said, this feedback will be very useful as you plan future track layouts.
Drivers want to have fun, and the last course made that difficult.
No one person should feel responsible for the layout, or the complaints, in any way.

Jerry has often had to carry the brunt of dissatisfied drivers, but in the future, he has to be able to hand-off this responsibility to others.
The more we can guide and support future track setters, the better off we all will be.

Frck off? That person was venting!

Thanks again!