Interesting thread about....

[kary]

...a new time trial format in POC STS. We might learn something from this perhaps?

http://www.porscheownersclub.org/mboard ... 6&posts=24

[gulf911]

The only thing that we should look at is the their reduced price for a TT IMHO . We don't have 120+ cars showing up for our TT series so its not comparable and not needed IMO. They are considering this change out of necessity and time constraints. What should be done is to try to get some of those POC'ers that are unhappy with the crowds to sign up for ours, but whenever I tell them its 275.00 they say "What??". If were able to get a stable bigger attendance we should be able to lower the price.

[kary]

Regarding price, the Fontana event is only $300 for quite a bit of track time at a world class venue. I think this is very good and better than others would offer!

Regarding need or not, maybe the auto-x folks should consider such a format given the crowds?

I personally like the format to time at any time during the weekend. Going out and trying to blast off two runs for time really does not teach consistent fast driving IMHO. I hope the Fontana event is executed like last year with a 30 minutes session for time which allows everyone to do it as they wish.

[Tim Comeau]

I really dig the new TT timing format. I want to know what your ultimate fast lap is, not what you could wring out during a set time frame. Every lap should count towards posting your absolute fastest lap. That's the real measure of what you and your car are capable of, right? Let's get credit for that.
It also does save alot of time because you don't have to change for timing. More track time is the result, which brings more drivers, which can lower the cost of the event over time.

[bobbrand]

Didn't we have this thread already last year?

I totally disagree with the fastest lap of weekend deal.
If you get your fastest lap from following a better driver around the track in practice, then you are not a better driver than the guy who can do it himself. And talk about consistency...if you are consistent, then you should be able to bang out a fast lap anytime you want one including timed runs.

At SoW, I didn't have great practice laps in general, and part of that was that running in the red group, I was usually getting the hell out of someone's way at least once per lap. At the same time, I'm sure that Steve and Bob were passing people every practice lap.

If you want to give a prize for fastest practice lap, then dig up another dolphin trophy or maybe a baby doll that cries. Something like that.

That's my opinion on that format.

[kary]

Didn't we have this thread already last year?

I totally disagree with the fastest lap of weekend deal.
If you get your fastest lap from following a better driver around the track in practice, then you are not a better driver than the guy who can do it himself. And talk about consistency...if you are consistent, then you should be able to bang out a fast lap anytime you want one including timed runs.

At SoW, I didn't have great practice laps in general, and part of that was that running in the red group, I was usually getting the hell out of someone's way at least once per lap. At the same time, I'm sure that Steve and Bob were passing people every practice lap.

If you want to give a prize for fastest practice lap, then dig up another dolphin trophy or maybe a baby doll that cries. Something like that.

That's my opinion on that format.

Bob, don't hold back, tell us what you are really thinking

But seriously, if you are being passed every lap might you need to be in a different group?

Certain tracks do not lend themselves to pass easily. SOW is certainly not good for a open session of timing. The Speedway is rather easy to do it because of the openess of the track width and the long straights. I have to say after riding with Cort Wagner I learned a lot about how easy and what you need to do to pass someone and keep your momentum. So doing something like this at the Speedway is really insignificant in my mind. Doing it at SOW kind of sucks, partuicluarly when I pass you multiple times in a session just kidding

[gulf911]

Regarding price, the Fontana event is only $300 for quite a bit of track time at a world class venue. I think this is very good and better than others would offer!

Regarding need or not, maybe the auto-x folks should consider such a format given the crowds?

I personally like the format to time at any time during the weekend. Going out and trying to blast off two runs for time really does not teach consistent fast driving IMHO. I hope the Fontana event is executed like last year with a 30 minutes session for time which allows everyone to do it as they wish.

From what I read, The venue you brought up regarding the POC thread is for their STS (Short Track Series) specifically SOW, not POC's TT series so Fontana doesn't qualify. Again, we are not running out of time to run timed runs even at AX's.
Bob has the right idea, 1 fast lap for the day doesn't make you fast (Sorry Tim). Case in point. I ran several low 1:29s in practice for the weekend. My timed laps were in the mid 1:30's, I was running 1:30's - 1:31's all weekend, If I can't run the 1:29's in 2 uncontested timed laps ( read consistency) that's not my time. One of my freinds was running about the same and he did 2 1:29's for timed, He was the better driver. It's you, the car, and the track, you are not chasing somebody faster or getting held up in traffic, that's the measure of how well you can drive, when it counts you are consistent. There is a reason they call it practice. Maybe they should use that in F1? go out and do your fastest single lap, I am sure thats how they can measure who the better driver is.

[Kim Crosser]

Kary Clements wrote:

Regarding need or not, maybe the auto-x folks should consider such a format given the crowds?

Although the idea of being able to use your best time of the day is attractive (and occasionally I haven't been able to repeat my best practice time during the timed runs), there are a couple of issues in AX that don't exist in TT events:

1. No transponders - thus, all timing needs to be recorded manually. Currently, we only staff timing for the timed runs. If timing gets out of whack during practice, we just keep going and eventually get it reset. A car off track, or a worker running through the start/finish beams can screw up the times for at least 5-6 cars (sometimes a lot more!).

2. Cone counting and resetting - cones are only counted (and swiftly reset) during the timed runs. If we went to paid corner workers (being considered), we might be able to do this all day - but currently we have a lot of people with limited experience who are corner working the first four sessions. Except during timed runs, cones can be missing/misplaced and we just keep running. At the last event, many practice runs were made with one slalom cone so far out of place that it really didn't exist - should those times count against runs with the cone in place? Are cones really a factor in TT?

[kary]

Kary Clements wrote:

Regarding need or not, maybe the auto-x folks should consider such a format given the crowds?

Although the idea of being able to use your best time of the day is attractive (and occasionally I haven't been able to repeat my best practice time during the timed runs), there are a couple of issues in AX that don't exist in TT events:

1. No transponders - thus, all timing needs to be recorded manually. Currently, we only staff timing for the timed runs. If timing gets out of whack during practice, we just keep going and eventually get it reset. A car off track, or a worker running through the start/finish beams can screw up the times for at least 5-6 cars (sometimes a lot more!).

2. Cone counting and resetting - cones are only counted (and swiftly reset) during the timed runs. If we went to paid corner workers (being considered), we might be able to do this all day - but currently we have a lot of people with limited experience who are corner working the first four sessions. Except during timed runs, cones can be missing/misplaced and we just keep running. At the last event, many practice runs were made with one slalom cone so far out of place that it really didn't exist - should those times count against runs with the cone in place? Are cones really a factor in TT?

Yes, Kim, I agree with your assessment of the issues with auto-x. I was merely trying to get people to think a bit outside the box. Some years ago, when I was co-chairing auto-x and the attendance was booming due to the high production numbers of Boxster's and 996's I wrote a program to optimize the auto-x run group's based upon past performance. That software also took into account instructor pairings and corner worker assignments. In fact is was much like a BRI but relative to the event. It allowed for the starters to send cars closer together with a run group thus optimizing the track time with minimal interference from other cars in that session. I ran the numbers against actual events and then compared the assignments used manually and found a huge difference. Usually allowing for at least 1 additional lap per day and sometime 2 laps. The only area where the is an issue is in the beginner group because the deviation in ability can be high with brand new drivers.

The reason I say this is again to get people to think out of the box. My past experience showed people could not accept a different way of doing things, but I would hope people could try and think of ways to improve our club experience rather then tell us why we should remain the same. That is how organization and countries deteriorate.

Keep the discussion going here, but let's see if we can do a few things:

1. Provide more track time at all our events for a lower cost.
2. Try and grow folks to start club racing from Time trialing and Time trailing from auto-x.

If we do these things we will have many possibilities!

[RickK]

I see a big problem with this idea relative to instructing. It is pretty hard to put in your best time with a second body in the car. If we were to switch to this new method we might have problems getting enough people to instruct at out events.

[Gary Burch]

The tranition from AX to TT is the QDE's we have. What would make them even better is to use the club transponders for an unoffical timing of the event, for educational purposes only. Is there a reason that we can't have an actual TT at the stadium?

[kary]

The tranition from AX to TT is the QDE's we have. What would make them even better is to use the club transponders for an unoffical timing of the event, for educational purposes only. Is there a reason that we can't have an actual TT at the stadium?

Gary,

I do not see why not, there use to be time trials in the stadium prior to the great series that Jack has built up. I think the issue is the loop that needs to be put down on the road. I thought some folks did some investigation into using the transponders at the stadium when the club purchased the AMB system?

[Gary Burch]

Kary

I think with some ingenuity and maybe some skullduggery we could make it work. We have gotten almost unanimous positive response from the QDE series. I think timing would only make it better.

[bobbrand]

I think the issue is the loop that needs to be put down on the road. I thought some folks did some investigation into using the transponders at the stadium when the club purchased the AMB system?

The loop can also potentially be suspended above the cars. I heard that they did something like that with RC cars, and eliminates problem with cars damaging the loop.

[Jeff Grow]

The loop can also potentially be suspended above the cars. I heard that they did something like that with RC cars, and eliminates problem with cars damaging the loop.

But then how would we handle a Cayenne with a set of mountain bikes on a roof rack?