Type 2 over rev and warranty

[sean996]

Anyone seen values for the type 2 over rev? If so, at what miles/hours . . .

Mine had a value of 127 at around 450 hours which Porsche is claiming confirms abuse . . . 127 engine firings over red line (if I'm understanding this right) . . . that's only .35 of a second at 7200 rpm (if they all happened in a row!!!!) . . .

Sean

[Curt]

Did you do the "money shift"?

[sean996]

No . . . my car pours out smoke on restarts and PNA is pointing to this type 2 over rev as evidence of abuse causing the smoking as opposed to acknowledging there's a problem with the car

Nice customer committment.

Sean

[Curt]

How do you "over rev" a car with a sophisticated computer controlled rev limiter?

Have you taken this question to the Pelican Parts 996 and Rennlist 996 message boards? That would be the place to get way more information.

[RickK]

How do you "over rev" a car with a sophisticated computer controlled rev limiter?

Not that Sean has, but a missed shift, downshifting too early, spinning and rolling backwards without the clutch in all come to mind.

[David J Marguglio]

Not that you would ever do such a thing Curt, but it occurs on a missed shift. Computer cant control those. The type 2 limit is 7250 rpm and the 127 cycles is one occurance. There will be an hours number that corresponds to when that occured in the engines life. I believe there was a similar post about this from Bryan under thechnical last week; see that for more info.

[bryanearll]

Zone 2 over rev's can ONLY happen on a missed shift (putting the car in 2nd rather than 4th from 5th ((boy you'd need to be going better than 80mph)) OR the engine has been run backwards, such as during a spin both feet were not "IN". Zone 2 is a mechanical over rev. Damage from a mechanical over rev. is instant.
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Now you have given me cause to write a letter because I purchased my Porsche Approved Vehicle with warranty and I have ZONE 2 damage that I was not made aware of prior to the sale (not to mention the "hit and run" body damage when I was assured that the vehicle had not been in an accident) Still, the car runs great, looks immaculate but a nice friendly "shot across the bow" is great between friends. Actually the dealer was ALL SET to say abuse right up until they saw that it was actually in warranty and I'd only owned it 4 months. So that's why I took a very sudden interest in DME, Zones 1 & 2 etc. Mike, the dealer tech has acknowledged, in my case, that there are transmission problems with the 996. We haven't yet "put that on paper" but it's probably one of those that "everyone knows there is a problem but the cost of a 'recall' is not yet worth the damage assessed. Shades of "Fight Club". Mike said; "Drive the car when you can get it to do it 'for the tech' (Chris) we will install a new transmission."

What we need folks is a real statement of intent from Porsche with ALL OF THE RULES. Only a club can get that information.
B

[sean996]

You can over rev by putting the car in first at 90 mph

This is what the "type 2" over revs are supposed to catch . . . I called a dealer as an innocent buyer asking what excessive was for this parameter . .. after discussing it with a tech, he said 1000-2000 is fine, 5000 would be excessive . . .

This parameter is supposed to be spark plug firings, and at 7000 rpm, you get about 350/second. I'd like to know the actual RPM this parameter logs at . . .



Sean

[bryanearll]

BTW - Things began to smooth over immediately after I expressed an interest in the GT3.
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[bryanearll]

Further, with 101 ignitions, Chris (the tech) said: "no big deal, I've seen a lot worse." Well, I guess that would depend on how bad is bad. Still, it will be good to get a definitive answer.
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[bobbrand]

No . . . my car pours out smoke on restarts and PNA is pointing to this type 2 over rev as evidence of abuse causing the smoking as opposed to acknowledging there's a problem with the car
Sean

My RSA also pours out smoke on restarts. I thought that just meant it was a 911

[ttweed]

Further, with 101 ignitions, Chris (the tech) said: "no big deal, I've seen a lot worse." Well, I guess that would depend on how bad is bad. Still, it will be good to get a definitive answer.

As the DME begins logging the Stage 2 occurences over 7250 RPM, does it record a max RPM? I can see a big difference between 127 cycles at 7300 and 127 cycles at 9,000! How do they know what the amplitude was? Is there a max-rev value recorded (like a tell-tale tach has?)

Even a single mechanical over rev, just for an instant, could be very damaging, if the valves float and contact the piston. It only takes 1 engine cycle in that event to bend a valve. I can see the dealership not wanting to warranty it.

TT

[sean996]

The type 2 limit is 7250 rpm and the 127 cycles is one occurance. There will be an hours number that corresponds to when that occured in the engines life.



Where did the "127 cycles" data come from? Is that engine revs or spark plug "cycles" or "ignitions"?

Thanks,

Sean

[sean996]

I found that old thread . . . thanks . . . so it sounds like the type 2 value is the duration of the last incident ???? not a total counter of occurances???? How would the service guy I spoke to have came up with a number of 5000 as being excessive?

But looking at Bryan's numbers in the old thread, our type 2's are in the same ball park which makes me think it's not a counter . . . ?

Sean

[bryanearll]

I will clarify the counter the issue since it is still fresh in my mind.

The first value: 101 is the number of ignitions in "the zone"
the second value: is the time in the engine life when the "event" occured.

For example, the guy who owned my car must have "valet parked" at 41 hours into the engine. The last recorded Zone 1 recording was very recent at 1500 some odd hours (last run of the day just past the swale). However, the rev. limiter never engaged, because I was within the threshold of it kicking in. That said, Zone 1 starts "somewhere" and knowing that figure is important for everybody. If Zone 2 starts at 7250, Zone 1 may start at 6000 (who knows?)

One of the Rennlist guys had a Zone 1 value of 35000 on a DME machine that I saw.

Of importantance to everyone was the nature of how the black box records "events". Lets take, for example, my cars previous owner. Under his watch the engine experienced a Zone 2 DME value. If the computer keeps a LIST of all such occurances, dates and engine hours, that's worth knowing. If I, God forbid, should miss a shift and the new counter number is now last week for Zone 2. Where is my record? Where is the history of the bad man before me? I think a very clear picture of what is being recorded and how it is recorded is very important to the membership interested in purchasing new vehicles. Otherwise instead of spending $110000 on a new GT3 I will be looking to refit a classic. Further, I'm going to take Porsche to task on explaining Porsche Certified in the nicest possible way. It's simply best for all parties to state where due diligence begins and ends.
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