KP class

[David J Marguglio]

As long as we are posting points, I thought I would update mine to reflect the 2 additional points that I now have to take for adjustable shocks (dumb rule).

Tire width +2
Adj shocks +2
Tire rating +2
Shock tower +1
Brakes +3
Weight +4 (this is lame too as my car is completely stock and Jad gets 4 points and his car is made of fiberglass, duct tape, and some spray paint)
Springs +2

Total = 16

Where shall I spend those 4 points? Decisions, decisions.

[bobbrand]

Weight +4 (this is lame too as my car is completely stock and Jad gets 4 points and his car is made of fiberglass, duct tape, and some spray paint)

David, are you sure your car is less than 2981? You still have everything in there - even the packing shelf.

I think that's a good point. How come Jad's car is made of fiberglass, lexan, duct tape, has no interior, and not until he took out the side windows did he actually have to take a point for weight reduction.

Also, is the rule officially that the weight for points purposes is taken with all fluids topped off, as that is the definition of Porsche curb weight?

[martinreinhardt]

David's car is proably that weight since his car is a rare "all delete option" RSA.

But, the new weight rule with 50 pounds doesn't make any sence what so ever. We go on the scales with a full tank (this part is correct). But we race with a quarter tank which is proably about 100 pounds less weight. So in my view we fixed a rule that was not broken by starting with 51-150 pounds = 4 points.

[Jad]

The reason my car has so much removed and I only get 4 points is that I started at ~3300 lbs with power seats, electric sunroofs, 11 speaker stereo, etc, etc yet have the same 250 hp that RSA's supposedly do , turbo lag and old mid 80's technology.

Plus, how come I am taking points and STILL weigh more!

I can whine with the best, but the person with the best arguement by far is Bill and his HEAVY 3200 lbs, underpowered 232 HP, concour 968 that has beaten us all

[bobbrand]

but the person with the best arguement by far is Bill and his HEAVY 3200 lbs, underpowered 232 HP, concour 968 that has beaten us all

Good point...255 front tires should be +2

[David J Marguglio]

255 front tires should be +2

Excellent point Bob! Please write that down and submit that through "proper channels" to the zone for a proposed rule change.

Bob, I am sure that my car weighs less than 2981, but not by much. For the unenlightened, that 2981 reflects the C2 weight of 3,031 (according to Porsche that includes 9/10 of a tank of gas whatever that means) less the allowable 50 pounds. So a stock RSA weight of 2954 is already taking 4 points.

My car weighs about 2917 (approximating gas as my guage doesnt have a line for 9/10ths) so I am taking 4 points. And so should all of you sandbangers, except Martin who should be taking 12.

As Martin, correctly pointed out, we have really fixed a problem that didnt exist. The 100 pound leeway that existed in the rules was supposed to account for gas, removal of jack, tools, etc. With out new "improved" rules, I bet there are many that are running better than 50 pounds under.

That's it! I'm bringing out the scales!

[Pete Millikin]

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I have a weight question. My interpretation is that weight points are assessed on curb weight (=all fluids topped off, spare, tools & no driver) less the competition weight (weight at the finish line).

So, doesn't nearly everyone take 4 weight points since 51-150lbs in weight reduction comes from dropping a spare, tools, and minimum gas? Any serious lightening earns points fast.

BTW, I finally did a weigh in and I'm taking 12 points with a competition weight of 2450lbs.

[bibbetson]

Since all of us are coming clean on our points in KP, here are mine.

Adj shocks +2
Camber Plates +2
LSD +2 (Why am I the only one taking points for this? I know the cheater Turbo S gets it for free.)
Tire rating +2
Shock tower +1
Sway Bars +2
Springs +2
Weight +0 (~3150 lbs in AX race trim. Sorry had to get a dig in. )

Total = 13

(Not sure if I have to take points for my sway bars as they are factory M030 bars, however I don't have all the other M030 package parts installed so I'm guessing that I do.)

[Bob Gagnon]

You are right, there is no real definition of weight other than the weight that is in the owners manual.

The owners manual weight is the so called "DIN curb weight" which is with all manuals, spare tire and tools PLUS a gas tank that is 90% full. Why 90% rather than 100% full, ask the Germans.

Anyway, fuel weighs around 7.25 pounds per gallon, so if you are down 10% of the tank capacity plus 7 gallons, theoretically you need to take points....

I think the weight rule should describe what can be removed i.e. spare, manuals and tools and nothing else and allow fuel to be free.

Any weight other than that described above that is removed from the car should count for points.

Also, if we are going to be picky about 50 pounds, I think that we should be able to consider own weight related to a 170 pound average person. If you weigh more than 170 you get to count it against weight removed, if you weigh under 170 you have to take points. Lets see, I weigh 235 so -170= 65 pounds more for me from the car!!!!

[Bob Gagnon]

One other thought, the DIN weight also includes a full windshield washer tank which in a 964 holds 7.4 liters= 16.3 pounds.

[Jad]

One other thought, the DIN weight also includes a full windshield washer tank which in a 964 holds 7.4 liters= 16.3 pounds.

Mine is full, it is just sitting in the garage

Pass the pizza and beer, or Martin and I will be in KI I don't seem to recall any professional series penalizing the light driver, that must explain why all the good drivers are so big

[pdy]

Actually, weight is well defined. Curb weight is with full or 90% full
fuel tank, depending on the source (anyhow, less than 20 lbs diff),
plus all the other things normally delivered with the car (spare,
manuals, etc.) - everything but the driver and any cargo/luggage.

The curb weight as specified in the owners' manuals is for a
base automobile, without any options. Since many cars have
options, the weight of a given sample (with the full tank) will
usually be more. Ferinstance, If you take out the spare, and are
still above curb weight (say, due to power seats), no problem.

Our rules say the car has a minimum weight. In PCA Zone 8 and
SDR rules it's "as stated in the owners manual". A specific weight
lbs or kg) is spelled out in the PCA Club race rules, PCRs and POC
GCRs, but it comes from the owners' manuals as well. Since that
weight is defined as curb weight, it means with a full (90%? )tank.

Okay, I am probably opening up a hornets nest here; Given this
definition of curb weight, why would we then think that a car
needs to meet the minimum with any condition of fuel that might
occur? If the car crosses the finish line close to empty, and
weighs 120 lbs below curb weight (like with a 20 gallon tank),
I'm saying that is legal. As long as the car weighs at least what
the spec says WITH A FULL/90% TANK, it should be fine.





Now, we do not address driver weight, because the rules (at least
the rules I am involved with) are for cars, not for humanoids that
might drive them. Maybe we should, but that is not generally done
in the sanctioning bodies I am familiar with.

Okay, here it comes....

[kary]

(Gotta help out those air cooled boys with some head games.... )

Kary, here's a headgame for you:

RickK wrote:
"I agree and that is why I am leaning towards selling my C4 and getting a 944 Turbo or Turbo S."

Whoa!

Dan, no head game there, just lost his mind, though I would get ride of the C4 and get a C2 if I were him. That could be why he is looking for something else

[bibbetson]

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I have a weight question. My interpretation is that weight points are assessed on curb weight (=all fluids topped off, spare, tools & no driver) less the competition weight (weight at the finish line).

So, doesn't nearly everyone take 4 weight points since 51-150lbs in weight reduction comes from dropping a spare, tools, and minimum gas? Any serious lightening earns points fast.

BTW, I finally did a weigh in and I'm taking 12 points with a competition weight of 2450lbs.

Curb weight is actually calculated and published by Porsche. It can't really be calculated because they don't publish exactly what car options the weight was based on. They do say full (or 9/10) fluids, spare, tools and no driver. The difference is that with many option laden cars the "curb weight" is much higher than the published curb weight. For example my car is about 3200 lbs (approximate because I don't remember what I had in the car or how much gas was in it when I weighed it), yet the 968 curb weight is 3086 lbs. This gives me a LOT of room for taking stuff out that's not bolted down.

If you have an option free car (more like what Porsche based the curb weight on) and you take all the stuff out, then depending on the interpretation of the fuel level, you may or may not be under by 50 pounds, but you will likely be fairly close.

I would think that the intent of the rule is curb weight minus race weight at the end of the race. It does not state this, but that sounds like the intent. Otherwise how do you handle differences in something as rudimentary as gasoline (6 lbs per gallon). The interpretation of this item alone can easily account for 50 lbs.

I think the thread may have been officially high hijacked...

[bibbetson]

Okay, I am probably opening up a hornets nest here; Given this
definition of curb weight, why would we then think that a car
needs to meet the minimum with any condition of fuel that might
occur? If the car crosses the finish line close to empty, and
weighs 120 lbs below curb weight (like with a 20 gallon tank),
I'm saying that is legal. As long as the car weighs at least what
the spec says WITH A FULL/90% TANK, it should be fine.

It seems to me that we are applying the curb weight logic to fuel, but nothing else. If I weigh my car with a full tank, spare, etc. but then take 70 lbs of that fuel out before or during the race, how is that any different than taking the spare out? My car would be lighter and thus an advantage would be gained.

I vote for defining it specifically. Something like curb weight - race weight (all items removed) with 10 gallons of fuel. Even though the amount of fuel is not enforceable it has at least been stated and no debate needs to be had. The 0-50 pounds for zero points would still work as an allowance for removing the junk from the car.

Depending on the lashing I get here, I might even add that as a proposed rule change.