KP class

[Jad]

Jad:

Jumping topics here, but I wish a JP 944 Turbo was as close in performance potential as the KP 944 Turbo S the way you describe it. The difference is not just the LSD for 2 additional points but also the smaller brakes, no ABS for the most part and smaller tires (245 against 275). If I changed these items I would be deeply into JI territory. Also the Turbo is smaller and so you would need a much greater transformation to bring it to the Turbo S specification. The only advantage of the earlier Turbos is a 100 lb curb weight differential but it doesn't nearly make up for the other differences. As such, basis our rules, the KP Turbo S has a much greater speed potential than the JP 944 T, a fact not reflected in the very slight difference in Class ratios currently expressed in the BRI Index (1.061 vs 1.058 respectively or about 0.25 seconds at Big Willow)

I disagree, the tires are the same, as the bodies are the same, you put flares on and you could run 275 tires like I do. The bigger brakes don't improve braking, just fade, which I haven't heard as a real problem on std turbos especially if cooling is added. ABS is optional and we are all such good drivers it doesn't help So the only significant difference is turbo design. Yes, mine is better, thus the 30 hp bump in stock power, but as the cars sit, you will pull me on a straight with your chipped engine which develops ~275? Besides, for the points you take for the chip, you can also change to whatever turbo you want free, so put an even bigger turbo in and definitely be faster while staying in JP/KP.

[martinreinhardt]

944 Tubo S was sold as "Turbo Cup" in France but was still different from the track version. See http://www.asarus.com/cup/turbos.shtml

I now it's not in english but it has pictures and maybe google can help http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asarus.com%2Fcup%2Fturbos.shtml+&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

[Jad]

Or try http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Pit/4786/

for the turbo S registry. Much like Keiths RSA page. Has all the specs etc

[Otto]

Jad:

Whom are you kidding? You can indeed transform a regular Turbo into a Turbo S if you had the points and the money. However no way can you achieve the parity you are talking about within our rules framework. That is the only relevant matter. If I tried to achieve equipment parity with you I would be deep into JI territory, not to mention broke. If the bigger brakes and ABS, the free LSD, the wider tires and the big-turbo 30 HP advantage you have for starters do not mean anything to you, give them to me and I can assure you that there wouldn't be any contest as to who would be way ahead and no, I would not claim parity. You tell us you are choosing lower weight over extra-power, that is your strategic choice. However, at least from what I saw at Fontana, you not only had the lower weight but also installed the chip when the going got tough. Now, with even less weight and the corresponding 4 points you are acknowledging, will we still see that 7-point chip? If so, I want not only your car to race but also the bottomless bag of points you are carrying.

[Jad]

Otto, my point was that you can build, for less money than a turbo S, a turbo that is as fast or faster than the turbo S. I was thinking:

$5000 base turbo with ABS
$1000 add LSD if not so equipped +2
$2500 chip, firering headgasket and bigger turbo 300+ hp 7 points
$1000 springs and sway bars 4 points
$500 wide fenders
$300 new non-adjustable custom shocks
275 tires +4 points
Total 17 points, so throw in a shock tower brace and camber plates to be at 20 points.

So for about $10k, which is $5k less than a stock Turbo S, you have a car that weighs the same as mine (~2900), has 50 hp more, same tires, suspension (better sway bars) and transmission (minus hardner gears in first and second). Granted the S has slightly better brakes, but the difference in lap time would be minimal and more than offset by the higher hp.

Don't get me wrong, I love my car, but if Rick wants to sell the C4 cab and go faster for less money, I think he can go really fast for the least amount of money by smartly building a std turbo.

PS Add the nose with an intercooler slot. It may add a good 10-20 hp for no points and $200. Also, once you chip the car, all other turbo mods are zero points, so you could run 2 bar of boost and 400 hp money willing That is the bottomless bag of points.

[bibbetson]

Jad, I would adjust that as follows:

255 tires +2 (R Compound only)
$250 Camber plates +2
$150 shock tower brace +1

Net: 18 points.


Reasoning: Run coilovers on all four wheels with custom valved (non-adjustable) shocks with fairly heavy springs. [Stretching the rules, yes - breaking them, no.] Dump the torsion bars. This would allow you to run 255 tires w/o needing to replace the stock fenders as there would be very little body roll. [Heck, it's a racecar just roll the fenders to make it fit.] Add the camber plates mostly for the monoballs although the adjustability would make it more convenient. Add the shock tower brace because it's so stiff.

This setup would allow you to run KP or JP by changing to 245 Kumho V710's. Seems to me you could own JP with this setup. Being competative at AX events might be difficult with the big turbo, but TT events would be fun.

[Jad]

Good point, that might be better. Compared to an RSA, you have bigger front tires, same rear, more HP, better balance, less torque, better aero, better brakes, more weight. Faster at a TT, probably slower at an AX, but half the price and it carries 4 spare tires, gets 30 mpg with all spare parts readily available for cheap when things go wrong. In fact, anyone want a spare hood or fenders or rear glass or window motors or??????

[RickK]

Wow, this is great stuff. You guys are giving me the magic build sheet.

Bill, I'm not sure I totally follow your comments with regards to tires. You were talking about saving 2 points by running 255s not 275s, did you mean at all 4 corners? Also, you then mentioned 245s to be in JP or KP and that lost me.

[Pete Millikin]

Rick -If I followed correctly the normal 86-88 944 Turbo is classed in J and the 88 Turbo S and 89 Turbo are K. The 911 competition is US 3.2Ls and euro Carreras in J and the 964s and RSAs in K

Alex Toth has a regular Turbo in JP. I ran against it & Jad's call is right. In autox it has a torque & weight disadvantage vs 911s but at Big Willow the turbo spools up and I'm toast in the straights. It become a skills challenge to win in the corners.

Ignore the dark side - once you have spent the 5-10K more going in the pain is over, well maybe. I'd like to see what folks think of operating costs of a 944 turbo vs NA 911. My experience is with 3.2 Ls, which are generally bulletproof up to 200K mi

[bibbetson]

Wow, this is great stuff. You guys are giving me the magic build sheet.

Bill, I'm not sure I totally follow your comments with regards to tires. You were talking about saving 2 points by running 255s not 275s, did you mean at all 4 corners? Also, you then mentioned 245s to be in JP or KP and that lost me.

The 944 works best with the same size tires at all four corners. It's a very balanced car, so it makes sense. The width issue is two fold, first what will fit under the fenders, and second points. Jad and I added +2 for R Compound tires no matter what. Then you may have to add 2 more for tire width depending on the class. In K you can run 255's with no points, but for J the max is 245's. That's why I made the destiction. You could also run a 245/275 setup with some firmer rear springs and still be within points for KP and the coilovers in the rear would make this change a snap. Depending on the amount of HP the monster kicked in when the turbo spooled, you might need the 275's to keep the rear end on the ground when powering out of the corners. If you haven't read between the lines yet, these cars understeer like crazy until you get some rubber under the front of them. It has made a HUGE difference to both Jad and I.

KP has become a very competative class. At each race, total car setup and driving is going to make the difference. One more car at the party would just add to the fun.

I'm contemplating doing the same thing... Or maybe I will just take 300 pounds out of my 968 and see the RSA's scatter!

[bobbrand]

Jad:

Whom are you kidding? You can indeed transform a regular Turbo into a Turbo S if you had the points and the money. However no way can you achieve the parity you are talking about within our rules framework. That is the only relevant matter. If I tried to achieve equipment parity with you I would be deep into JI territory, not to mention broke. If the bigger brakes and ABS, the free LSD, the wider tires and the big-turbo 30 HP advantage you have for starters do not mean anything to you, give them to me and I can assure you that there wouldn't be any contest as to who would be way ahead and no, I would not claim parity. You tell us you are choosing lower weight over extra-power, that is your strategic choice. However, at least from what I saw at Fontana, you not only had the lower weight but also installed the chip when the going got tough. Now, with even less weight and the corresponding 4 points you are acknowledging, will we still see that 7-point chip? If so, I want not only your car to race but also the bottomless bag of points you are carrying.

Ouch....Jad, you better put on the 3-layer driving suit with all of that flame around you.

[bobbrand]

So for about $10k, which is $5k less than a stock Turbo S, you have a car that weighs the same as mine (~2900), has 50 hp more, same tires, suspension (better sway bars) and transmission (minus hardner gears in first and second).

How come it costs the 944 spec guys $10K to build a spec car, and all they do is buy an old N/A 944 and rip crap out of it.

In any case, the sound of a C2/RSA with a muffler bypass is worth about $20K

[RickK]

Bill, got it. That makes sense. So maybe even a non-S car would make more sense in KP than JP to get points-free 255s.

Is getting rid of the torsion bars a common approach?

Bob, the Spec 944 guys do more than just rip stuff out. They do suspension work, roll cages, race seats, tires, etc. However, I think a 944 turbo will cost closer to $15k setup as Jad and Bill have configured it. At least to do an 87 or 88 (non-S) car, which will come with ABS.

[bobbrand]

Bill, got it. That makes sense. So maybe even a non-S car would make more sense in KP than JP to get points-free 255s.

Is getting rid of the torsion bars a common approach?

Expensive.
Usually accompanied by fabrication/reinforcement.
People who take the time and money to do it are usually putting on top quality coilovers --- like the kind that just bolt right onto a 911 C2.

[Otto]

Jad:

Yes, you can build a fast regular Turbo in the JP class but it is not going to be nearly as fast as a properly built Turbo S for KP, if both stay within their point allotment. My car is a good example. I am already maxed out at 20 points and have most of the features you guys listed but points won't allow me to go to 275 tires or to have big brakes with ABS. My LSD also costs me 2 points, which would allow a Turbo S to ride on Hoosiers since the LSD is free for the Turbo S. I could install a bigger turbo, mass flow sensor and the corresponding chips for more horsepower but so can the the Turbo S and with less expense. In that case reliability would become an issue for both, as you have well pointed out.

Commenting on Rick's project and the choice of tires, I run 245/45/16 all around in my JP 86' 944 Turbo, the best choice in my opinion if you want to stay within the point allotment and 16-inch wheels. They are also more readily available. The 255's are of 50 aspect ratio and may not fit in the front with the standard fenders.