KP class

[Jad]

Well, you are basically building a spec car, just with a $300 chip that gives you 275 hp and the car costs $1-2K more to begin with. $10k is probably a little low, but $15k is easily done with a Top ten time of day car. Can't be done with a 911.

For reliability I would take a 3.2 na 911, but there is little to be done at a reasonable price to go any faster and the initial buy in saving pays for a lot of repairs. You really need the 3.6 to get real hp and that is a lot more money. If you race every weekend, it may be cheaper, but with monthly AX and 3-4 TT a year, the turbo is way cheaper.

The coil overs just bolt into 944s as well. The 968 has them std and uses the same configuration. The choice is to leave the torsion bar and use light coil overs, or remove the torsion bar and use heavy coil overs.

If sounds is worth $20k, buy the 911, but I still believe, no matter how fast you want to go, whether it is JS or KI or faster, the price is about half with the 944 compared to the 911. The way our rules are written, turbos have a big advantage, though no one is really taking advantage of it and once they do, the rules may change. Right now, about $25-30K will get you a 944 turbo that should keep up with cup cars.

When I have more time, and am not having so much fun in KP, I will spend $5k to have the big turbo, intercooler, headgasket etc done, buy some slicks, remove the radio, electric sunroof, passenger seat and give Jack a real run for his money

Nomex on

[Otto]

Jad:

I wouldn't be so quick to say that our turbos have a "big advantage" the way our rules are written. I would rather say that we pay dearly in points, read 7 points, for the option of bolting in a worthwhile (say 40 hp) amount of horsepower by adding some boost. On the other hand, if you have noticed, RSAs or C2s can achieve similar amounts of power gains with no point penalties, as exemplified by Bob's and David's cars which are running about 250 hp at the rear wheels (a 40 hp gain) with no point penalties. Am I right gentlemen? This fact allows RSAs or C2s to additionally afford 4 points of weight drop and even run Hoosiers. We cannot do that. We have to choose between horsepower and weight drop. No chance for me to run Hoosiers or to afford a 4-point weight loss. Therefore, in fact, we will have a hard time keeping up with them.

Even JP 911s can be modified to walk all over our Turbos because they have less weight to start with. See what is happening in the JP Class at POC. Have you noticed that 3.2 911s are running under 1:53 at Fontana with that Club? Of course, you will not see 944 Ts over there in those classes as Rules are written against them but it is still a fact that a properly prepared 911 can do very well against 944 Ts. As we all well know, of course, it is all a matter of $$$$ but also good decisions and knowledge when it comes to car preparation.

[David J Marguglio]

Rick: do not be lured into thinking any race car project will be cheap. Take it from me, the numbers that are are tossed around are not realistic. Here is how things happen in the real world: The statement “$1000 add LSD if not so equipped” becomes “Part number 40.309.170 at $1,295.00 plus $97 tax plus $63 shipping plus $1,350 installation labor” See how quickly that $1,000 becomes $2,800?

How about another? “$1,000 springs and sway bars” becomes “$562 Konis, plus $480 coilover kit and springs, plus $628 Weltmeister sway bars, plus at least $1,000+ for install” and lookie there you are over $2,600. Oh did you want a corner balance and four-wheel alignment? Okay you are over $3,000.

This idea that one can build a competitive Porsche race car for $10k is something of an urban legend. To be anywhere in the ballpark you will be doing ALL of the labor yourself, sourcing used parts and painting it with a rattle can. I have been down this road and would be happy to share my $26k+ build sheet with you. Even if you are turning the wrench, consider that John Ricard told me that he has over $15k in his spec 944 and he gets his labor for free (well sort of).

Here are a few quotes that I have picked up here and there which are particularly germane to your project: “Take your budget, double it and you’ll be half-way there.” “When your car is 90% complete, your project is half-way done.” And perhaps my all-time favorite, “Which part of Porsche racing did you think would be cheap? The Porsche or the racing?”

[RickK]

David,
I hear you, but I did not say cheap, I said cheaper. Yes, I know what things cost and I know (all too well) the labor rate that I pay to make up for my incompetence with a wrench. But that said, the 951 offers a lower buy-in than a 964. The mods to make it trackworthy should be about the same, asuming a stock car is purchased. 951 parts are probably a bit less expensive but not much when you factor in the same or similar labor costs. I would be interested in hearing more about your build though.

[David J Marguglio]

RSAs or C2s can achieve similar amounts of power gains with no point penalties, as exemplified by Bob's and David's cars which are running about 250 hp at the rear wheels (a 40 hp gain) with no point penalties. Am I right gentlemen?

No, actually our RSA's are rated at 248 at the crank.

[Kim Crosser]

They didn't ask what it was rated at the driver.

[Otto]

David:

"Rated" right ? What you say if very true but maybe only half the story? I know Bob's car mustered 250 hp at the rear wheels the last time he went to the dyno (it was even published in the Witness) and if I am not mistaken, you told us your car was in the same range when you purchased it. Anyway, the potential is obviously there for such a power improvement without any point penalty based on Bob's car alone if you are too shy to confirm it.

Having said that, I fully agree with your assessment of the "real" cost of making a race car out of a street car. To add to your examples, when you buy an old street car, you often have to start replacing and reinforcing stuff you didn't plan to in order to make it withstand the stress of racing, sort of rebuilding the car, which can substantially add to the cost. Labor can also eat you up if you do not do the work yourself. Most of us do not even want to acknowledge that "real" cost, afraid that our wives might find out.
What to do? Consider the old advice of buying a car that has already undergone the conversion to racing and which will best fit in the class you are planning to race, of course, after a careful evaluation from an experienced mechanic. Racing shops servicing PCA or POC enthusiasts know of cars that are available and you can also peruse the ads in the PCA and POC publications, aside from word of mouth.

[Dan Chambers]

Rick:

Don't let the horror stories scare you. I know you know what I'm about to say, but for the sake of argument, I'll make one simple comment:

The cost of pleasure, fun, and recreation cannot be measured simply by dollars and cents.

Let's face it, no body gets into competitve driving and car mods (or even Porsche for street driving) for a return on investment. If you do, I've got lots of land for sale in Mojave, Florida .... and I'll throw in the Brooklyn Bridge for pennies on the dollar !

The simple fact is, buying driving, and modifying a Porsche is as much about the fun, and enjoyment of the experience, as it is the "improvement" and "investment" in the car. We do this because .... WE LOVE IT! Not because a set of coil-overs, a roll cage, a set of 8's and 9's with Hoosiers, corner-balance-and-alignment will all bring a heftier resale value. It's fun. It's exciting to see how the mod's effect the way the car drives. It's a gas to chase down the guy in your class at Streets of Willow and watch for the reluctant point-by after three laps and a blue-flag from the cornerworkers. To have all this fun, we spend $$$$$$$.

How much return on investment is a trip to Hawaii, Fiji, Bali? How much return on investment is owning a dog/cat/horse (not a race-horse)? How much return on investment do you get from a gourmet dinner with friends? What is the resale value of all these investments? Fun. Happiness. Rejuvenation of the human spirit. In other words, intrinsic and personal reward.

Sure, you should invest in quality parts, quality labor, quality response from the company that provides service. That's smart spending. But ask yourself, what price; happiness?

I've got more cash than sense invested in the Great-White-Waterbucket, but you won't hear me complain about the upside-down nature of my investment, because I derive so much pleasure from that heap that the money thing is purely secondary. When Steve G. told me my head-gasket job may cost as much as the car is worth I thought to myself "Steve, you're not even close to knowing what this car is worth.... to me!" The concept of worth is relative to each individual.

I say, go out and find that stock 951, do a little research, build the Turbo track/street car of your dreams, and leave every event smiling; knowing you had fun .... regardless if you're holding a $0.39 ribbon or not.

Rick, you've done the C4 thing, why not try the 944 thing? Go for it!

[David J Marguglio]

Rick: believe the horror.

Dan, two things: First of all, upgrading your car (i.e. making systematic additions to increase performance) is to building a race car as remodeling your kitchen is to tearing down your house and building a new one. It is very difficult to piecemeal a race car; it simply is or it is not.

As Otto correctly pointed out, and I should probably have this made into a t-shirt, It is ALWAYS better to buy than build. But if one chooses to go through that process of building a racecar, I feel they should go into it with the wisdom of those that have gone before them. That brings me to my second point which is it is only about the money when it is significantly more than you intended/hoped/promised to spend. In your example of a trip to Fiji, how would you have felt about your trip if despite what your travel agent, hotel, airline, etc. had quoted you, in the middle of your trip you found that all of your costs tripled? Would you still be feeling that rejuvenation of the human spirit, Dan?

Be afraid!

[kary]

This idea that one can build a competitive Porsche race car for $10k is something of an urban legend. To be anywhere in the ballpark you will be doing ALL of the labor yourself, sourcing used parts and painting it with a rattle can. I have been down this road and would be happy to share my $26k+ build sheet with you. Even if you are turning the wrench, consider that John Ricard told me that he has over $15k in his spec 944 and he gets his labor for free (well sort of).

Here are a few quotes that I have picked up here and there which are particularly germane to your project: “Take your budget, double it and you’ll be half-way there.” “When your car is 90% complete, your project is half-way done.” And perhaps my all-time favorite, “Which part of Porsche racing did you think would be cheap? The Porsche or the racing?”

Well Said David, and Dan C!

The fact is so many people talk about this sport and cost and in the end if you are worried about the cost then you should not be in the sport. This is more true than ever when you consider driving time trail on a big track where an incident could happen that will range from $10,000 to totalled depending upon the situation. So here is another saying to add to David's:

"If you are not prepared to loose the car then don't enter the track!"

Mods will be the least of your worries when this happens

[David J Marguglio]

"If you are not prepared to loose the car then don't enter the track!"

Kary, as a 911 pilot, I am always prepared to loose the car, just not always prepared to lose the car.

[RickK]

Ok, David, Dan, I am siginificanlty worried and fully at ease . I am not going after a full race 951 at this point. If I make the switch it will be to a street/track car that I think will be competitive in either JP or KP, of course there is no telling whether or not I will be competitive in JP or KP yet. While down the road this might turn into a dedicated track car I don't want that, yet and my thought is to build what would have been a 951 club sport, if such a thing existed.

Kary, I've always beleived "if you are not ready to push it off a cliff" then don't take it to the track and that is partially what has been keeping my C4 off the track lately - not just the cost but that car is just too nice to be beat to crap out there.

Thanks for all the advice. I'll do the right thing here, eventually.

[kary]

"If you are not prepared to loose the car then don't enter the track!"

Kary, as a 911 pilot, I am always prepared to loose the car, just not always prepared to lose the car.

Good point! The NASCAR boys are loose in the corners

Sometime typing on a BlackBerry is error prone!

[Jad]

The turbo S was the original Porsche Cup Car, they just loaded it with options for sale is the US, but it started life in ~86 early 87 as a spec factory race car ala GT3 until the factory realized it was too fast and easily out performed the 911 of the era (250 hp vs 217 in the 911). Do you think the new Cayman will be faster than the 997? I sure don't, though there is no reason it shouldn't be. Porsche 'detuned' the 944 turbo S from 250 hp to 208 with the intro of the S2 in 89 and bumped the 911 to 250 to correct their error. Then by 92 with the 993 on the horizon, they bumper the HP back to 232 in the normal 968, also making only ~4 (yes only 4), 968 Club Sport turbos that were wickedly fast and thus could not be sold in competition to the 911.

Ask Martin about his 3.0 liter 944 club sport turbo, I think he still regrets selling that car.

Oh, if you buy someone elses built 944 turbo track car, you can easily do it for under $10K, but you may want to work up to something like that coming from the security of a C4. It is a wild ride taming even the mild 944 turbo. I can't image the 911 single turbos that even Steve Dente say are undrivable.

[gulf911]

Have you noticed that 3.2 911s are running under 1:53 at Fontana with that Club?

Just wanted to jump in for a second....there are 2.9's running 1:50's and 1:49's in V3. There are 3.2's faster than that. They are also running huge wings and Hoosiers combined with very good drivers...

Following is a list of significant Historic wins by 944T's....