AX photos + instructor feedback

[Greg Phillips]

Did not run today but shot photos of what looked like a fun SE track (but in hot weather).
Photos are up on Picas at :
https://picasaweb.google.com/1057760116 ... directlink

Also got more feedback about the run schedules, and some of the problems is we have not adequately communicated to the instructors some of the issues.

#1 When the instructor meets with the student they need to find out if the student needs corner work training or f they are OK to work by themselves. If they need instruction, the instructor should take them out when the are corner working in one of the morning and train them to corner work.
Ideally that would allow the student to corner work on their own when they corner work. If they are still uncomfortable working solo, they can let the corner work chair know and ideally they should be assigned to work with a more experienced corner worker.

#2 The students need to get out of the instructor's car after 1 or 2 laps in the second practice session so that they can get ready for their corner work session. Not usually a problem as the instructor is often wanting to take a few laps without a student to get ready for timed runs.

#3 The instructor's day is now busier in the morning. In the 1st practice sessions, they will corner work 3 run groups, drive 1 and instruct 1, leaving only 1 group of rest.
In the 2nd practice sessions they will drive 1 and instruct 1 and in the timed run groups they will only need to drive.
The instructors used to always corner work during the timed runs in the heat of the day. We have tried to let the instructors corner work in the cooler part of the day, but it does make the 1st session busier.

Greg

[Ianc2]

Great photos as always greg .


FOR SALE : gt3 front spoiler lip , one careful owner . Cash offers .







Seriously though ,
THIS is a fantastic early 911 photograph .
Well done sir , you truly are a great photographer .

[martinreinhardt]

Greg, thank you for the great photos.

I noticed the results have been uploaded to the official site http://results.pcasdr.org/event_standings.php?time_format=0&database=&event_date=2014-09-07. But, I am certain there are a few cars which are still in the wrong class. The one I know for sure is: Jim Binford should be in CC11, not SS08 with a 3.8 modified RS America with wings

It was a fun equalizer track and I liked the new code bar reader at the start, I am sure it will make it easier for timing in the future.

[Jim Binford]

Martin is correct - my RSA which I ran Sun is CC11 and results for the AX event has been updated - I also made the mistake of registering late for the event and was classed as running my stock GT3 so just goes to show I need to remember to register on time and check the postings on trailer. Many thanks to all the AX team for putting on another great event and all the drivers for good times on a muggy day

[ttweed]

Did not run today but shot photos of what looked like a fun SE track (but in hot weather).
Photos are up on Picas at :
https://picasaweb.google.com/1057760116 ... directlink

Thanks for the pictures, Greg, as usual. Everyone appreciates them, I'm sure.

Also got more feedback about the run schedules, and some of the problems is we have not adequately communicated to the instructors some of the issues.

#1 When the instructor meets with the student they need to find out if the student needs corner work training or f they are OK to work by themselves. If they need instruction, the instructor should take them out when the are corner working in one of the morning and train them to corner work.
Ideally that would allow the student to corner work on their own when they corner work. If they are still uncomfortable working solo, they can let the corner work chair know and ideally they should be assigned to work with a more experienced corner worker.

[beginwhinyrant]
I have to take issue with this. I don't think it is a fair or friendly practice to make a newbie work corners twice any more than it is to make the instructor work corners twice (unless they really enjoy it), especially in weather like we had yesterday. When I tried to get some accommodation for myself or my student by perhaps waiving my Red session or assigning him to work with someone else with experience for his Blue session, I was told that there was no such allowance possible--I would both have to work my own session and go out with him for his, contrary to your suggestion above. Faced with that {lack of] choice, I bit the bullet myself and did not take my student out for the Red session to train him, so that he could have a break.

When combined with the truly crappy, intense morning schedule, and not being relieved from the Red corner-working session until 4 run groups had taken place, I did not have a single break of over 5-10 minutes from the time I arrived to work tech at 6:20AM until my timed runs were over at 3:00PM. If I had not made my own lunch and brought it, and eaten while I was working the Blue group corners, I would have not had any time to eat at all, unless I asked to take my timed runs in a later group so that I could at least get some lunch around 2:30 (if the truck had not already left by then, as it sometimes does). I would not want that to be the experience my student had at his first autox--he might never come back! As it was, I gave up a practice lap in my first session and kicked him out of the car early in the second in order to keep up with the back-to-back student/instructor run group schedule without me or my student running to the grid (or the corner-working truck) after parking the car. I miss the old days when there was a break between instructor/student groups. If I had wanted to change tires for timed runs, as I often did in the "old days," it would have been impossible to keep to this schedule.

All in all, it was the worst experience I have ever had at an autox, considering the hot, humid weather, despite the fact that I had my best results yet in my new car. If I hadn't been so exhausted and drained for timed runs, maybe I could have found the .08 seconds I needed to get into the top-10, I don't know, but the overall experience has made me seriously consider resigning from tech working or the instructor corps or both, in the interest of self-preservation. I am not as young and strong as I used to be when I started this 17 years ago.
[/endwhinyrant]

As far as constructive suggestions go, I am invariably told that there aren't enough people to man the corner stations. This started around 2008, in the recession, when we had 80 cars or less per event. Yet lately, we have had events with 110-120 drivers and I still hear that. That's 19-20 drivers per group and there are how many corner stations, maybe 8-9 on a long track? I know that some people who are working the event have to be relieved from corner working, as do some with disabilities, but I also know that I haven't gotten a waiver from it for coming early and working tech inspection in many years now, as we used to do. I often see 2 and sometimes 3 people working the same station. Unless training is taking place, why is that necessary? I can remember many years where I always worked corners alone. Especially in practice sessions, it is not impossible to do a good job with a single experienced corner worker at a station. If a cone is down and not in the middle of the track in practice, it's not a big deal if it doesn't get replaced immediately. In timed runs, it is a little harder (and more important) to keep the cones in place and report penalties on the radio, etc., but it can still be done by a single person, especially with a little more of a margin between cars.

I have to say that there should also be more of an incentive for people to drive within their limits in practice, as there is a lot of unnecessary cone carnage going on in those sessions. I saw the same cars hitting the same cones over and over in practice, creating a lot of extra effort for the corner workers. Yes, it is important to approach and find the limits in practice, but I've also seen a lot of sloppy driving lately that should be discouraged somehow.

TT

[ttweed]

I am certain there are a few cars which are still in the wrong class.

Looking at SS01, if the year and model are correct for the entries, only one of the cars is legal, and he came in DFL. Neither a 2005 Boxster, a 1986 Carrera, or a 1970 911 are eligible for SS01 class. It is not a hotly contested class, so maybe it doesn't matter.
TT

[martinreinhardt]

I am certain there are a few cars which are still in the wrong class.

Looking at SS01, if the year and model are correct for the entries, only one of the cars is legal, and he came in DFL. Neither a 2005 Boxster, a 1986 Carrera, or a 1970 911 are eligible for SS01 class. It is not a hotly contested class, so maybe it doesn't matter.
TT

Yes, it's difficult to know afterwards what the drivers really drove in SS01 or any other classes when the data is incorrect. The drivers and maybe even registration should make sure the model, year, class is correct in the computer before the results are being printed. Otherwise awards will be given out to the wrong people. Note: When we were doing registration and timing, I use to go thru the photos to find the correct car model and help the drivers to be in the correct class, but that is a lot of work.

[Robert]

Yes, it's difficult to know afterwards what the drivers really drove in SS01 or any other classes when the data is incorrect. The drivers and maybe even registration should make sure the model, year, class is correct in the computer before the results are being printed. Otherwise awards will be given out to the wrong people. Note: When we were doing registration and timing, I use to go thru the photos to find the correct car model and help the drivers to be in the correct class, but that is a lot of work.

You may want to consider doing what we do for DE/TT, which is requiring all drivers to input their car on the Zone 8 classification website in order for their registration to be valid. Doing so saves a ton of hassle during and after the event for everyone, and it has the side benefit of making it easier for drivers to print a pre-filled-in tech form. We have software that compares what the driver selected as their car on MotorsportReg to what's in the Zone 8 classification website database, and if it doesn't match they get an e-mail prompting them to fix it. For walk-ups, you could potentially have a tablet that allows people to classify on the spot, or require that walk-ups must run in X class if their classification can't be verified via the Zone 8 site.

[jenniferreinhardt]

Good ideas Robert and thanks for the photos Greg!

The AX track was great!

Greg’s suggestions are solid and I’m willing to try them until the new schedules work or don’t work. I’ve had some busy Instructor days like Tom. It is more difficult with a really new Student. It is nice to corner work in the morning! Will this benefit be alternated with the newer Drivers eventually?

As an aside, I saw and heard of a few of our experienced Drivers getting sloppy or disregarding the Club’s rules as far as bringing people in their cars. The rules are there for a reason and it is also a liability for our club. Disqualify the Driver when this stuff happens!

Thanks to Robert and Tom and everyone for their work in developing the new scanning system. I’ve heard that it will eventually be used the whole time at the AX - not just for timed runs - Will it ensure everyone takes only the amount of runs allowed?

As far as the new run group and corner working schedule goes, I had my Student get an extra vest from the box when we went out to corner work my White session. We went over all the safety concerns, made sure he understood and practiced them, and then I sent him back in after 25 minutes. He was fine to corner work alone after that. I realize not all Students would feel comfortable to do this. Yes, the Student could work with a more experienced corner worker when it is his turn, but that might be hard to keep track of.

I think it is difficult, but the Corner Working Chair(s) need to be super precise when they make the call to switch corner workers. It is a tough job and call when they need to drive their runs too. Yesterday I worked 2 sessions and a lot of the 3rd - so there was time to get ready for my Student’s session without a crazy rush, but certainly no time to sit down for a session.

The timing of everything is what is hard to call. I rode with my Student during his first session and then was ready to take him out with me when I heard them announce that it was his run group’s turn to corner work. Maybe the Instructors who are last to begin their driving session will experience this phenomenon.

Agreed, we don’t need 2 corner workers at most corners. It would give a break to some of the Drivers.

Yesterday, there were Students who were assigned an Instructor who did have more than 4 autocrosses, (this number includes the Performance Driving School which counts for 2). Upholding this 4 AX as a Student limit would give some Instructors a break too. BTW, Students used to get an Instructor for only 3 events years ago.

[Ianc2]

Yesterday, there were Students who were assigned an Instructor who did have more than 4 autocrosses, (this number includes the Performance Driving School which counts for 2). Upholding this 4 AX as a Student limit would give some Instructors a break too. BTW, Students used to get an Instructor for only 3 events years ago.

Good points Jennifer , and I agree with all but I can counter argue the particular one I have quoted .
I think this was Debra's 3rd and my 4th , but we both did the PDS last month so that is a moot point .
When we finally got to registration (I'm sponsored by http://www.lastminute.com) we were to be given checkered wristbands , but I asked if we could have instructors if anybody was available and luckily for us , 2 people volunteered their time and efforts and we were granted instructors for the day .
We both really appreciate this and as we are both eager to learn , we will ask if instructors are available again in the future .
If they are , GREAT !!
if not , or we are denied , so be it .

I think the MINIMUM of 4 is a safety concern , which I whole-heartedly agree with .
However , a good instructor (of which sdr has in abundance) riding in a car with a person who has only done the MINIMUM of 4 can only help to not only progress that person's skill level but also their safety awareness .
I'm not sure "cone-kill" statistics could validate my thoughts , but I firmly believe great instructors have made me a safer driver who is more in control of his car and the fact my times are improving is of little consequence to me when compared to the fact I am not driving over my limits as much and scattering cones and corner workers every run .
(Being in the same class as team Reinhardt also makes it an exercise in self improvement rather than trying to compete !! )
We are both fully aware that the instructors give up a great deal of their day and that sometimes having a student in their car can unbalance it (though this can be the opposite in some cars) and take away from their overall competitive enjoyment of the day , but we are both committed to learn as much as possible when at events and if this font of knowledge is available we would be crazy not to take advantage of it , but more importantly I believe in particular I am less of a safety concern to the volunteers manning the corners the more instruction I receive .

I too had a very busy day .
Not only was I learning the track during my own practise runs but was also lucky enough to get to passenger during my instructor'a practice runs , and this combined with watching the drivers during corner work and spending "lunch" peering through the fence at certain parts of the track meant I only really got about 15 minutes .
And 5 if them where spent trying to fix my front spoiler back on !

Another great day !!
See you at the next one .

[jenniferreinhardt]

Hi Ian,

Martin and I are glad you are in our class and your times are getting faster Next year ought to be very competitive.

Yes, it is a benefit to have an Instructor as much as you can! I had one many times - my Husband Martin!

We had a shortage of Instructors yesterday and also some difficulties with the new schedule.

BUT, having fun and committed Drivers/new friends like you and Debra make being an Instructor great!

[rshon]

I also must call into question the 4 AX limit. Not everybody progresses at the same rate.

I happened to meet a member last weekend who had taken the PDS and did 2 or 3 AX events last year, but was still not fully comfortable autocrossing solo and still wanted an instructor. The person in charge at the time apparently did not take the time to understand the situation and turned this member away, and as a result, the member stopped autocrossing completely. After finding this out, I offered to instruct this person if I happened to be at the same autocross, just to try to help get them back.

Our top priority should be to continually attract and grow new participants, and in turn, new instructors. The PDS is one of our most shining examples of a way to start growing new participants, but we need to make sure we follow up so that as many students as possible become regular eager participants; these are the kind of members who usually go on to develop stronger club relationships they look forward to. If we help them farther along the path, many more could eventually become tomorrow's instructors.

Spending most of our energy catering primarily to long-time members and focusing on trying to retain those who don't want to be retained (either as instructors or as participants) would be the road to decline...

[Ianc2]

Hi Ian,

Martin and I are glad you are in our class and your times are getting faster Next year ought to be very competitive.

Yes, it is a benefit to have an Instructor as much as you can! I had one many times - my Husband Martin!

We had a shortage of Instructors yesterday and also some difficulties with the new schedule.

BUT, having fun and committed Drivers/new friends like you and Debra make being an Instructor great!

It IS great fun !!
And with that thought it is easy to see how team Reinhardt have so many events under their belts , but the more I think about the logistics of it and the limited number of events per year I realize you two are past the obsession stage and are firmly addicts .

Long may it continue

We have now done 2 at our local region (el toro) and there is only one other in my class to look up to (Christine newcomer) .
I think we can squeeze in another 3 there this year , so let us know if you're traveling and we will provide shelter from the sun and water etc .

[Ianc2]

I also must call into question the 4 AX limit. Not everybody progresses at the same rate.

I happened to meet a member last weekend who had taken the PDS and did 2 or 3 AX events last year, but was still not fully comfortable autocrossing solo and still wanted an instructor. The person in charge at the time apparently did not take the time to understand the situation and turned this member away, and as a result, the member stopped autocrossing completely. After finding this out, I offered to instruct this person if I happened to be at the same autocross, just to try to help get them back.

Our top priority should be to continually attract and grow new participants, and in turn, new instructors. The PDS is one of our most shining examples of a way to start growing new participants, but we need to make sure we follow up so that as many students as possible become regular eager participants; these are the kind of members who usually go on to develop stronger club relationships they look forward to. If we help them farther along the path, many more could eventually become tomorrow's instructors.

Spending most of our energy catering primarily to long-time members and focusing on trying to retain those who don't want to be retained (either as instructors or as participants) would be the road to decline...

Hey Russell !!
Thank you once again , it was a pleasure and an honour to be your pupil on Sunday .

The lotus is great , I only felt sick due to my on-going ear infection
No , seriously .
I was travel sick driving myself to work this morning .

I have had a couple of occasions now where my instructor has said I'm on my own during timed sessions , but Sunday was a BIG day for Debbie .
Jackie corwin and David whitereid "pushed her from the nest" on her last timed run , after after she overcame the nerves and tears she shaved a second off !!
There has been many high points autocrossing this past year , but the highlight of the year was seeing her so happy and proud of herself once we got home .
It was awesome , and THAT is all down to great sdr instructors ....

[Greg Phillips]

Tom wrote
"I have to take issue with this. I don't think it is a fair or friendly practice to make a newbie work corners twice any more than it is to make the instructor work corners twice (unless they really enjoy it), especially in weather like we had yesterday. When I tried to get some accommodation for myself or my student by perhaps waiving my Red session or assigning him to work with someone else with experience for his Blue session, I was told that there was no such allowance possible--I would both have to work my own session and go out with him for his, contrary to your suggestion above. Faced with that {lack of] choice, I bit the bullet myself and did not take my student out for the Red session to train him, so that he could have a break."

Granted this was about as bad as our weather gets with heat and humidity, but the goal was to take some stress off of the instructors.
Ideally a student would not have to go out for 2 sessions (training and work) more than once or twice in their careers, where an instructor might end up doing it frequently if he is getting new students with the old system.
I don't think having to be out an extra session for a student in their training phase is too much to ask for the benefits they are getting.

I agree that we need further discussion about the number of corner work stations and if they need 1 or 2 (or more) workers at each station.
I agree with you that unless it is a very busy corner that only 1 person is needed routinely, but other have their input.
I think that the corner chairs could prioritize and leave those who have already been out being used only as last resort. And if they need 2 workers they can put a newer student with a more experienced worker so that an instructor would not be necessary to go out again.

Greg