Zone 7 Vs. Zone 8 test

[jenniferreinhardt]

Just let us girls still have the right to choose. I wouldn't want to be put in the L class or handicapped without my consent.

[Speedy]

Just let us girls still have the right to choose. I wouldn't want to be put in the L class or handicapped without my consent.

Great point Jen... Ditto for me on that!

[Aavitt]

Honestly, I would not like competing in Ladies Class without a Trophy. There, I said it. Not a surprise to most of you. What can I say, I like Trophy's! Afterall, doesn't perfect attendance count for something, come on? It does in school. Granted that my skill level is improving, after 4 years, 30+ AX's, 4 DE's, 10+ TT's, but seriously, I may be competitive now in AX but not in TT. Our GT3 is TT4 in Zone 7 rules. I know, a new class, no matter what you drive, "Ladies over 50" maybe then I would have a chance! I am opposed to eliminating the Ladies class or keeping it without Trophies. I think that women will not want to join in the fun and may be intimidated at first to even come out and give it a try if they are forced to compete with men. I think we need to keep it a an option.

[Speedy]

Honestly, I would not like competing in Ladies Class without a Trophy. There, I said it. Not a surprise to most of you. What can I say, I like Trophy's! Afterall, doesn't perfect attendance count for something, come on? It does in school. Granted that my skill level is improving, after 4 years, 30+ AX's, 4 DE's, 10+ TT's, but seriously, I may be competitive now in AX but not in TT. Our GT3 is TT4 in Zone 7 rules. I know, a new class, no matter what you drive, "Ladies over 50" maybe then I would have a chance! I am opposed to eliminating the Ladies class or keeping it without Trophies. I think that women will not want to join in the fun and may be intimidated at first to even come out and give it a try if they are forced to compete with men. I think we need to keep it a an option.

Sweetheart if you continue to have perfect attendance I will most definitely make sure you are presented with a special trophy at the Driver Awards Dinner!

[John Straub]

+1 for the ladies class.
John

[Greg Phillips]

STANDING UP FOR LADIES CLASS!
Like it or not the "L" class is currently a legitimate part of the Zone 8 rules. Ladies can and should be able to make the choice to add an" L" to their class. I STRONGLY disagree that men and women can compete equally in this sport. Upper body strength and endurance are a major factor especially if you drive a car without power steering. (as I did for 3 years) NOT TO Mention, but I will anyway, a size 13 racing foot that fits easily over the brake and the gas at the same time! Come on? What lady can compete with that? It takes a lot of leg strength to stop a GT3 flying down the straight at 130 mph. I am sorry it is just not a fair fight. Unless the club is willing to hand out Testosterone pills to all the ladies before an event, I think that the Ladies Class should stay an option. I tallied the last 3 years of AX and TT's 07, 08, 09. 21 Ladies competed in Ladies class. 15 trophies were given out in 3 years. ALL of them were WELL-DESERVED, no matter what Katina says. I prefer to compete with other Ladies in my class. It is not my fault that there are no other Ladies in my RSL class at this point in time. There have been others in the GT3 ladies class in the past, unfortunately they are no longer racing with the club. I have classed our GT3 in the Zone 7 system and it comes out AX3. That is up there and a very tough class. What is wrong with AX3L?

Not sure how this upset the ladies, but if you would look at the rules, they do allow for Ladies classes:
http://www.pca-ggr.org/files/pdf/GGR%20 ... s%20v2.pdf
1.1 NUMBER OF CLASSES
a. It shall be the policy at GGR to have a sufficient number of independent classes (as defined by the Drivers' Events Committee), so as to maintain fair and competitive events without prejudice for or against specific cars or drivers. In other words, if a class consists of only a single car due to lack of participation by others, that car will neither be involuntarily reclassified nor moved to another class without proof of the car's (not driver's) competitiveness in the new class. There shall be equivalent classes for women if they wish to be ranked separately from the open class, and the choice to participate in such class shall be entirely at the discretion of each female driver.

Greg

[John Straub]

Greg to the rescue!!!!

John

[Gary Burch]

I think the recruiting effort was limited to those people who had participated in the rules-making process previously, or had shown an interest in it by participating in earlier rule change processes vigorously. In some ways, that makes sense, as it requires a thorough knowledge of the existing rules and their basis, philosophy, interrelationships, etc., as well as a knowledge of Zone 8 dynamics.
TT

Maybe this is the problem. How can you have a fresh outlook when you are tied to the past. I can see using the current rules structure as a base and then incorporating a points based system. Although there have been so many band-aids applied to the current rules I am not sure they make any sense at all.

As for the Ladies class, I would think a woman that drove a race car would want to beat as many men as she could, as often as she could, and as badly as she could in a class without a suffix.

[Aavitt]

Thanks Greg for clearing up the GGR Rules about Ladies Class. There seemed to be some mis-information about it not being an option in Zone 7 rules. In response to Gary's post about beating as many men as possible as a lady driver, well, I dont understand why the "L" or no "L" really matters. I have beat some male drivers, but of course not in my class, so the GT3 gets all the credit and not the driver. I can't beat experienced drivers in my RS class. Even though I would like to think I will beat them someday, the reality is " its probably not going to happen." I would like to compete against other lady drivers in my class RSL or AX3L class.

[Aavitt]

I would like to correct my statement, I have acutally beat a few "newbie" GT3 drivers at an AX in the RS class. But I view that as a temporary situation if they continue to learn their car and become more experienced. I hope that we keep the Ladies class as an option.

[ttweed]

Maybe this is the problem. How can you have a fresh outlook when you are tied to the past.

I don't see this as a problem, Gary. I don't think being cognizant of the past prevents you from thinking "outside the box." It is easy to be innovative, but it is hard to also be effective without knowledge of what has come before. It isn't fair to imply that there is an "old guard" suppressing change, either. There has never been a charge to a rules committee in recent history to overhaul the club's rules completely, so you really can't judge what experienced people might come up with prematurely. It has never happened yet--there has only been a process established to propose changes to the existing rule set so far. It is only natural that we get a "band-aid/patch" result from the process we currently have. All you can do under it, really, is propose modifications of the existing wording. As I have said, I don't think the current proposal can even be approved within the existing process--it isn't complete enough and conflicts with other provisions of our rules. We would have to either adopt the entire Zone 7 rule set, to maintain consistency and prevent contradictions, or have further related changes proposed and discussed/commented upon before this "classification replacement" effort could continue under our current rules revision process. You cannot expect the rules committee and the region presidents to "fix" the shortcomings or incompleteness of a proposal by "filling in the blanks." That isn't how the established process works. We would need a different approach, outside of the existing rules revision process, to accomplish such a radical change. I think that is what Tom B. was trying to do by organizing a new effort. I think even Greg knows this--he just "threw the grenade into the room" to get people moving in that direction. If it helps get some new volunteers to tackle the problem, maybe it will even do the job in the end.

To blindly adopt another region's rules in total is just as much of a folly as continuing with what we have now, IMHO. The fact that the Zone 7 rules discourage installation of safety equipment is the kind of change in philosophy that we really should consider before adopting. The fact that people will be encouraged to run tires on smaller than optimal rims is another "implicit" philosophical change created by their rules. "Obsoleting" investments people have made in developing their cars is a negative, in my view. The fact that early modified cars are discouraged in favor of later stock models is opposed to my personal preferences and previous enjoyment of the P-car world, but that is idiosyncratic and less relevant (although there are others like me who may find it discouraging also, I'm sure). I could go on, but you get the drift. I don't want to sound like a broken record, or get the "whine and cheese" treatment from Mark.

TT

[Jackie C]

Don Middleton for President! I'd like to be dropped down 2 or 3 classes please

[jenniferreinhardt]

As for the Ladies class, I would think a woman that drove a race car would want to beat as many men as she could, as often as she could, and as badly as she could in a class without a suffix.

I've never driven in the Ladies Class but I can understand how some women would at least feel more comfortable starting out in this class. It may encourage them to drive - THEN they may or may not want to change later and enjoy 'chicking the guys'.

However, I do not really understand the Novice Class addition. But I guess the same idea as above holds true. Hey, do we have a Novice Ladies class?

[John Straub]

+1 for Rennifer...And I would like to see how many women could dive my GT with Goodyear slicks with no power steering as fast as I can.

John

(Edit)...Jackie, Jennifer, Katina, Angela, Lorie and more.....I know you girls could.

[Jackie C]

Seriously, shouldn't a season full of AXs cover the expense of a little trophy? OCR used this protocol of no trophies for single class cars when I ran with them.